The cleaned badge of shame

[UNCLE BINGO]

Not sure why this one came back cleaned , Its not particularly High value , or even a real high grade . I just need to post the pictures from my work computer before I go home so I might have a chance of shrinking the picture down enough to post here . I think PCGS just does not like me or they just like my money more . LOL .. Seriously what make s this one cleaned versus the many millions that come back with a straight number , because I would really like to know ? Thank you all in advance .///Bob

cert_45466917_obversesingle_243400628_Max.jpg (281.35 KiB) Viewed 1957 times

[UNCLE BINGO]

Here are both sides , I thought the reverse was really pretty before I sent it in .

both sides 1898-o.jpg (152.11 KiB) Viewed 1950 times

[jtlee321]

What I notice right away is the haloing around the stars and other devices. The luster is uneven, which is probably why they called it cleaned.

[UNCLE BINGO]

Well thank you for the reply , maybe that's it . I unrolled that 1898-0 out of a shotgun roll . Picked it out of twenty and sent it to PCGS. The end game was to learn how this all works . I wanted to know if the coin grading thing was legit . Like as in fair to everyone from the certified dealer to the collector and everyone in between . It is so painful to be thrown into all this not knowing just what it is you are doing . I think I have 70 of the 96 Morgans required for the set . The decision was made to spend the 6 to 9 thousand dollars that would be required to grade all the coins in my DANSCO slots on buying more Morgan dollars . Pretty sure the last 26 coins might break me but it is way more fun than watching my collection of Silver Eagles develop milk spots . I swear milk spots forming on graded 70 first strike proofs actually makes a sound late at night that wakes me up

[messydesk]

What I notice right away is the haloing around the stars and other devices. The luster is uneven, which is probably why they called it cleaned.

First thing I spotted, too. 98-O usually has very attractive, frosty luster.

[UNCLE BINGO]

Thank you both very much ! I will add your knowledge to future purchases . Honestly I bought that one sight unseen. When I took it to my coin dealer almost 6 months ago , he said nothing about it being cleaned , but was quite convinced it was AU . I disagreed with the AU grade so I decided just to get a better idea of what's what I went back the next day and purchased a different Morgan from him that was marked MS-64 PL . It is very hard to know whose opinion to trust . The new coin purchased came back MS 65 but I have not looked for what VAM number it might be yet . Education is pricey but knowledge is priceless I guess .

1887 MS 65.jpg (144.25 KiB) Viewed 1909 times

[jtlee321]

Very nice looking 1887! Your best bet is to go to a shop with a lot of certified coins or to a show and just look. The more you look at already graded coins, the better you will get at grading yourself. Don't just look at the straight graded stuff, look at the details coins as well. See if you can figure out what the graders saw and remember that look.

[UNCLE BINGO]

Yes thank you very much , I appreciate the advice . Six months ago I did not understand things like strike and luster being in the equation. I am not the only one that is rumored to be having difficulties of late . As far as rumors go I have heard a few and trust me I know very little about how this all really works, yet . Heard the guy that started CAC might be starting a grading company , That might be a good thing . When you get a situation like we have going on now that the only way a collector could possible ever get a graded 70 1999 silver eagle is to buy one from APMEX or Great Collections at their most extreme premium, then the lay man that I am starts to smell a rat . I do not like it at all when I get the impression that grading companies are an expert witness because they say they are ....We pay them for their opinion and then wait and wait and wait . My second submission that includes a 1893 cc Morgan has been sitting on a shelf in California for almost 6 months. Must have been the free vouchers or something , because if you express that stuff it comes right back .

In truth I may have started all this "more advanced type of collecting" a little late in life .
Long story short ' 6 years ago the ole man passed away . Lets just say he left me a few coins . No instructions included of course but there were a few . Right after the funeral I drug the contents to the barn and locked it in a fire proof safe because it made me sad .
Any way last April I went and got it . There was a slight distraction having to do with silver eagles and liquidating bullion and even a little gold but i figured I would try and fix what he had started . I figured how hard could it be' right ?
LOL
I did attend my first coin show , I skipped the members only one and caught one that had more of a pawn shop feel to it .To the best of my knowledge I am better at picking VAMs off ebay than attending that kind of show . All but one Morgan I bought at that show was about 10% more than its worth . It reminded me of a gun show and I wrote the over price off because I only shelled out a little cash but traded quite a few "chickens" for "chickens". I call them chicken cause if the world really ever goes to crap kinda like it has been , a guy could probably trade a 1893-S for a chicken at least LOL.....

[UNCLE BINGO]

Is there any way possible I could be granted the edit function. Typing' spelling and what not has not been my strong point like ever? . I would like to be able to fix a couple typos in my posts . These older format message boards were always my fave . They are just not all that much fun to administer or moderate . I will try to behave on here if the request could possibly be granted .ooops sorry I figured it out ,,,, man it has been a while since I had a active social media account

[DHalladay]

Is there any way possible I could be granted the edit function. Typing' spelling and what not has not been my strong point like ever? . I would like to be able to fix a couple typos in my posts . These older format message boards were always my fave . They are just not all that much fun to administer or moderate . I will try to behave on here if the request could possibly be granted .ooops sorry I figured it out ,,,, man it has been a while since I had a active social media account

There is an edit function!
At the top right of each of your posts you will see 3 icons:

edit.jpg (21.38 KiB) Viewed 1831 times

The first one that looks like a stubby pencil is the edit function. Click on it and it will let you fix-add-delete things.

[UNCLE BINGO]

Thank You . I figured it out about two seconds after I asked the question. Like I said it has been a while ...

[belmarbeach]

Agree cleaned, but was it overdipped and also lightly rubbed on Liberty's face and the eagle breast feathers or just 1 of those 2?

[morganman]

From a regular Joe with 57 yrs doing Morgans, your pics portray a example
that appears pretty normal with a few light surface scratches/bagmarks,
probally not deep enough to call cleaned. So the next issue appears to loom
much more obvious= Both obverse & reverse seem a bit to shiny with obverse
around STARS showing uneven wierd wear (like cloudy) that is typical of
dipping/polishing wear/hence called cleaned/details grade by TPG services

Two answers above to your post hit the nail on head, but maybe this will
help, as services are usually right with a cleaned/details assessment
Looking at many coins is best way to educate yourself concerning cleaning,
if thats important, and buy only graded coins if your not willing to spend
countless hrs learning the intricies of grading etc. Even seasoned folks get
fooled , so sticking to buying only graded examples will save time, money,
frustrations and more.

[ShamShield]

I sent one in too I thought was good but it came back obverse cleaned (still actually waiting for it in the mail)...had the cartwheel I thought but got the badge.

[UNCLE BINGO]

Thank you all ! I really just want to get a little better at all this. @ Samsheild , that's still a way pretty coin IMO . Bottom line for me in attempting to get all 96 of them , was that they are real and they are beautiful . In contemplating just how to obtain some of the harder dates , I figured I would have to either get extremely lucky to get a few with no issues or Lower my standards to higher my average .....That lower standard thing did not work out very well back in high school with girls , so only time will tell just how it all plays out with Morgan dollars.

[UNCLE BINGO]

Holy Cow I suck at this grading game thing!
Not sure if I get to use the trusty hammer on the holders or if I just should hit myself in the head with it ......

[UNCLE BINGO]

Hello ,
First of all I would just like to apologize up front for any thing I have written on this Forum that may have been offensive to anyone , I have meant no offense to any of you personally . I may in fact be the most Novice Collector of you all and In truth I struggle with all the VAM lists and attribution of my own stuff. I have attempted to peek behind the Curtain so to speak although I look nothing like Dorthy from the wizard of OZ . But how else is a guy gonna learn the truth of what it is we do . In my own Distraction BY Silver Eagle"s I learned a very IMPORTANT lesson. I Had 2 , 2008 Reverse of 2007 MS 70,,,,,, Blah Blah Blah. I think they are the fourth or fifth rarest silver eagles . One in NGC plastic MS 70 and One in PCGS MS 70 slabbed with the reverse,forward. The PCGS coin is flawless IMO , however the NGC coin had a hole right in the middle of her dress clear to the virgin silver, that would glow much like the noon day sun . This flaw was not something that would have been missed by a grader , however there it was on the label MS-70. This bothered me extremely. I started asking questions about how could this be that grading standards somehow did not seem to be consistent . I received answers that in truth sounded more like excuses. Imagine that a certified dealer making excuses for TPG grading services LOL. There are in fact grey areas and disclaimers written within TPG service Guarantees that quite frankly allow them to bend the rules and stray far away from what use to be ANA standards that should be held in the highest regard IMHO . I have been told that for a while certain Grading companies used something called "Market grading " I am not sure just what the heck that is but if I understand it correctly that policy or plan may have resulted in coins coming back over graded. As I am sure you all already know the Old green Rattlers in general are in most cases better coins like if a OGH had MS 63 on it , and it was cracked out and sent back during this Market Grading phase there was a good chance the number could jump by 1 or 2 . I guess that is why one should buy the coin and not the plastic .

Anyways you might ask why on earth I have written all of this in a topic titled "The cleaned badge of shame" it has to do with the first common Morgan I started the topic with .The 1898-O that came back cleaned UNC details .

1898-O Third submit cleaned.jpg (166.16 KiB) Viewed 1447 times

And also the one that I just got back that came back MS -62
I want to thank you all for you words and advise about the cleaned coin , You are right it is way to shinny especially the reverse that I thought was so pretty before I sent it in .The uneven luster and halos are not noticeable under my ziess loupe, so I'm still wondering if that has more to do with the lighting on the trueview Images .One of these days Ill buy a high quality coin microscope so I can take pretty pictures and actually ask some questions about die markers . Putting the two coins side by side has really helped me know what to look for in the future .

[UNCLE BINGO]

All right , I'll take it back . Clearly no one wants to play . I guess I was mistaken about everything I have written . Good luck to you all!