peculiar 21d reed queation

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SilverToken
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peculiar 21d reed queation

Post by SilverToken » Sun Jul 31, 2022 5:48 pm

Picked up a nice 21d and checking all 3 sides, we discovered a peculiar raised mini-reed.

Does anyone have the explanation for this and what it would correctly be called?

Thanks in advance
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DHalladay
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Re: peculiar 21d reed queation

Post by DHalladay » Sun Jul 31, 2022 6:01 pm

Interesting!
Those are nice, clear center dividing lines that I've never heard of or seen before.
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RogerB
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Re: peculiar 21d reed queation

Post by RogerB » Sun Jul 31, 2022 8:58 pm

Go to From Mine to Mint to read how collar reeds were cut.

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vampicker
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Re: peculiar 21d reed queation

Post by vampicker » Sun Jul 31, 2022 9:14 pm

Those center lines are far more common than you'd think. I've spent far too much time looking at edge reeds and I've seen this enough to call it 'unremarkable' - unless you're trying to trace a specific collar die. But I'd caution anyone against this, as trying to match the line patterns and wear patterns in the reeding of multiple Morgan Dollars is a trip straight down the proverbial rabbit hole. Please understand I am citing personal experience.
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SilverToken
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Re: peculiar 21d reed queation

Post by SilverToken » Mon Aug 01, 2022 1:02 am

Thanks for the advise and explanation. Thinking deeper about it, VAM's are dies, not reeds.

I will quit opening slabs now, LOL
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vampicker
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Re: peculiar 21d reed queation

Post by vampicker » Mon Aug 01, 2022 1:40 am

There are occasions where examining the reeding beyond doing a reed count is actually worthwhile, but there aren't many of them
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Unc90o
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Re: peculiar 21d reed queation

Post by Unc90o » Mon Aug 01, 2022 2:00 am

Lol. Did that reed count for 79s for about couple days. Glad I stopped.

RogerRock
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Re: peculiar 21d reed queation

Post by RogerRock » Mon Aug 01, 2022 4:36 am

The collar die is the third die involved in striking coins. Overlapping reeding is a noted variety on the Page with the 1884 O VAM 4, 4A, and 4B as examples. A rotating collar die is noted as the cause of this overlapping.

The centered lines between the reeding look like machining marks left when the reeding slots were cut in the collar die. IMO
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RogerB
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Re: peculiar 21d reed queation

Post by RogerB » Mon Aug 01, 2022 4:53 pm

RE: "A rotating collar die is noted as the cause of this overlapping."

Please explain what this means.

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Re: peculiar 21d reed queation

Post by RogerRock » Mon Aug 01, 2022 5:51 pm

There was no definition on the Page about this term. I would interpret a "collar die rotation" as some lateral play or looseness in the collar die like mechanical doubling occurs with the obverse and/or reverse die.

Comment on Page about "collar rotation" is under the 1884 O VAM 42B which says "Reeding on edge is overlapping at two areas ------- on various coins due to collar rotation."

Perhaps Messydesk and Vampicker can elaborate.
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vampicker
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Re: peculiar 21d reed queation

Post by vampicker » Mon Aug 01, 2022 6:38 pm

RogerB wrote:
Mon Aug 01, 2022 4:53 pm
RE: "A rotating collar die is noted as the cause of this overlapping."

Please explain what this means.
Think we've mixed a couple of things here. There are several of the overlapping reeding varieties that are known with the noteworthy segments located in variable positions. This is from the collar die rotating in the press. It has nothing to do with the cause of the reeding being cut with overlapping segments. You'd need some sort of anomaly in the reeding to ever be able to note any sort of rotation of the collar.
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RogerRock
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Re: peculiar 21d reed queation

Post by RogerRock » Mon Aug 01, 2022 6:44 pm

vampicker wrote:
Mon Aug 01, 2022 6:38 pm
RogerB wrote:
Mon Aug 01, 2022 4:53 pm
RE: "A rotating collar die is noted as the cause of this overlapping."

Please explain what this means.
Think we've mixed a couple of things here. There are several of the overlapping reeding varieties that are known with the noteworthy segments located in variable positions. This is from the collar die rotating in the press. It has nothing to do with the cause of the reeding being cut with overlapping segments. You'd need some sort of anomaly in the reeding to ever be able to note any sort of rotation of the collar.
THANK YOU JR for that clarification!
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RogerB
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Re: peculiar 21d reed queation

Post by RogerB » Mon Aug 01, 2022 11:51 pm

It would likely be helpful to new and some seasoned collectors if the terminology could be better explained in the background info sections.

The section in FMTM describes how reeds were cut into collars.

Also, some presses used circular openings into which collars with various opening sizes were inserted; but there were others that used square openings.

Lastly, all reeded collars had a top- and bottom-side. If the coin was ejected by raising the bottom die (or dropping the collar plate) then the top side opening was slightly larger than the bottom. This made the coins slip out easier.

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SilverToken
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Re: peculiar 21d reed queation

Post by SilverToken » Tue Aug 02, 2022 1:05 pm

wide reeds, overlapping reeds, and the new term "mini center reed... MTC?" If there is an update to the Vamworld be made???.... Now that I understand it is a die, and thanks for more clarification!
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vampicker
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Re: peculiar 21d reed queation

Post by vampicker » Tue Aug 02, 2022 3:14 pm

I promise I will never use the term 'mini center reed'
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vampicker
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Re: peculiar 21d reed queation

Post by vampicker » Tue Aug 02, 2022 3:27 pm

Here's a 68-S quarter collar die from my collection. It will help illustrate what Roger was talking about. Note the deep bevel in the plate to naturally drop and center (usually)the planchet to the lower die Also note the groove around the entire bottom face to prevent this from being installed upside down.
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RogerB
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Re: peculiar 21d reed queation

Post by RogerB » Tue Aug 02, 2022 11:21 pm

Good illustration of how the upper die surface was cut to help guide a planchet to the center of the collar. In addition the reeded part of the collar was slightly wider at this top face than the bottom.

So... there were two interesting aspects to collars: 1) they had a sloping guide cut into the top face to direct a planchet into the collar, and 2) they had a wider reeded opening at the upper face to facilitate ejection of a completed coin.

[vampicker -- can I use your photos in the next volume of FMTM ?]

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vampicker
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Re: peculiar 21d reed queation

Post by vampicker » Wed Aug 03, 2022 2:53 am

RogerB wrote:
Tue Aug 02, 2022 11:21 pm
Good illustration of how the upper die surface was cut to help guide a planchet to the center of the collar. In addition the reeded part of the collar was slightly wider at this top face than the bottom.

So... there were two interesting aspects to collars: 1) they had a sloping guide cut into the top face to direct a planchet into the collar, and 2) they had a wider reeded opening at the upper face to facilitate ejection of a completed coin.

[vampicker -- can I use your photos in the next volume of FMTM ?]
Certainly
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SilverToken
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Re: peculiar 21d reed queation

Post by SilverToken » Wed Aug 03, 2022 2:09 pm

vampicker wrote:
Tue Aug 02, 2022 3:14 pm
I promise I will never use the term 'mini center reed'
John,

I never meant to squirrel you. I simply have a very unique coin and found this reeding on the edge. In one of the first contacts I had on ANA's discussions, I was reminded that every coin has 3 sides, so I check now.

I appreciate your dream crushing, that helps all collectors stay on the path.

As far as the coin, it is a very nice 21d 1W1, the smaller reeds are found prominently at 6 o'clock, if anyone wants to check theirs.
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21d 1w1 obv.jpeg
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