What is the correct term?

[SilverToken]

Wayne has got me down that '89 23B rabbit hole. What is the correct term for the orange peel type texture that fills the field on latter die stages?

[messydesk]

Die erosion.

[vampicker]

I would add that this is atypical, so calling it 'atypical die erosion' would likely be correct. This particular obverse apparently either wasn't or couldn't be properly hardened. It's a great story and it's reverse mate has a story of its own worth exploring.

[SilverToken]

Thanks-

I've also got a weird reed that I need to take a pic of and that I would like to know about as well, and what it's called. It's like a mini raised reed in-between regular reeds on a 21D.

Be safe

[RogerB]

I would add that this is atypical, so calling it 'atypical die erosion' would likely be correct. This particular obverse apparently either wasn't or couldn't be properly hardened. It's a great story and it's reverse mate has a story of its own worth exploring.

Good explanation.

The photo shows turbulent flow of die steel. This is visible as the little waves in the coin's surface.
A laminar flow is more common and is visible as radial ridges from center to rim.

[pup_picker]

it may be obvious but i've seen this on non silver dollar coins for america coinage. i pulled a quarter aside recently to research this effect, so thanks for clearing it up so quickly!

as a side-note, is there much "crumbling" around the legend/devices? usually that gets a nice separate listing.

[vamsterdam]

I would call it improperly annealed die.

[morganman]

I have seen a bunch like this on specifically 1889 Morgans
I think it neat as like in other errors like struck thrus
Thats just me liking wierd happenings on morgans

[PacificWR]

Let’s keep in mind that the theory, improperly annealed obverse die for the 1889-P VAM-23A/VAM23B has not been proven. It is just a theory. When one let’s, the die do the talking another story starts to emerge. There is no doubt that the obverse die for VAM-23A/VAM-23B shows major die stress (weakness, but not fatigue) with all die sequences except one. The 1889-P VAM-23B die sequence #1 (repolished obverse die after the severe clashing episodes of VAM-23A) exhibits no die stress. This is a proven fact. Just check out the 1889-P VAM-23B VAM page. Each die sequence is illustrated. In addition, the 1889-P VAM-23B die sequence #3 and #4 are not rare. They can be easily obtained. Only Die sequence #1 and to a lesser degree, die sequence #2 are rare. When one looks at the SSDC Registry there are 40 1889-P VAM-23B’s registered, plus I have an additional 15 specimens (all die sequences) and have seen dozens more on eBay and at auction houses. This indicates to me that the obverse die for the 1889-P VAM-23A/23B had a normal die life. An improperly annealed obverse die would not survive four major clashing events and still have a normal die life.

JR is right about the 1889-P VAM-23A/23B reverse die. It has its own unique story. The first use of the reverse die was not VAM-23A/23B. The reverse die of the 1889-P VAM23A/23B, VAM-7, VAM-7A, VAM-7B1 and VAM-7B2 had a long life.

[vampicker]

So what other plausible cause is there for the clearly atypical clashing and erosion this obverse experienced? How do you known an improperly hardened die can't strike a bunch of coins? The theory (and yes, it is a theory) about a clash involving a softer than normal die is a possible explanation for several of the more unusual varieties in this field. As for the original question posed, I'd stand by calling it 'atypical die erosion'.

[SilverToken]

I asked because the 1889 23 A/B, Vam 30 and Vam 49 all have the same atypical die erosion. Could have been a bad batch of die material, like our wonderful 70's cars, just rusted sooo bad.

But the Vam 30 has a brush pattern of this erosion by the neck, bolstering the argument that the die polisher used a "secret sauce" to help soften, grind and polish? Same Guy on all 3? IDK. I'm spitballin!

[DHalladay]

The term I first heard about 25 years ago was "orange peel". I was told it's fairly common on 1901-Ps and I've seen it many times since on that date.

[vampicker]

It's not polish. None of the dies in question started out looking like this. This weird surface progressively appears during use. In the case of the 23A/23B obverse it occurs more than once. It got polished away with the 23A clash then came back

[messydesk]

The term I first heard about 25 years ago was "orange peel". I was told it's fairly common on 1901-Ps and I've seen it many times since on that date.

This thread has a lot of good stuff about "orange peel."

[PacificWR]

So what other plausible cause is there for the clearly atypical clashing and erosion this obverse experienced? How do you known an improperly hardened die can't strike a bunch of coins? The theory (and yes, it is a theory) about a clash involving a softer than normal die is a possible explanation for several of the more unusual varieties in this field. As for the original question posed, I'd stand by calling it 'atypical die erosion'.

Ok. We will let the die do the talking and stick with the facts, but first we must look at what we are dealing with. This could get a little long in length, so stick with me. Let’s begin with the official Obverse die description with the 1889-P VAM-23A. It is as follows:

“Very heavily clashed die with bold incuse n and partial incuse I of In from reverse showing next to Liberty head neck and partial incuse st of Trust from reverse showing in right hair vee of lower hair edge. Deepest clashed In known of Morgan Dollar series and first obverse die reported with clashed letters, clashed E's on reverse below tail feathers had been reported earlier. Fine raised dots in fields and die wear groves at stars. Likely obverse die did not receive die hardening procedure resulting in unhardened obverse die that wore very quickly, a rare occurrence for Morgan Dollar series.”

The key takeaway here is… unhardened obverse die that wore very quickly. Next, let’s move on to LVA’s article on “Possible Other Related 1889 Unhardened Obverse Dies". This is where it gets a little long, but it is very important . The first page of the article is as follows:

********************************** Click the photo to view at full resolution. ****************************************

Starting with paragraph 2 and continuing to the last paragraph we have a lot of focus on the hardening process for Morgan Dollar Dies and this is where we need to stop and look at the facts. What we supposedly have is the 1889-P VAM-23A/VAM23B obverse die that did not go through the hardening process (soft die). The facts do not support this, because 1. The obverse die for the 1889-P VAM-23A/23B was not retired early. The facts bear this out with a normal die life. 2. No unhardened (soft die) would have survived the four severe clashing events that occurred on this obverse die without die cracks/break. Remember, the 1889-P VAM-23A is the “Deepest clashed IN known in the Morgan Dollar series. 3. If we had a soft die, then where are the die cracks? Answer there are none on the 1889-P VAM-23A/VAM-23B obverse die, 4. Die roughness returns after die sequence #1 of the 1889-P VAM-23B. What we do have, when we let the die talk to us, is an 1889-P VAM-23A/VAM-23B. with the deepest Clash IN known in the Morgan Dollar series with die stress on VAM-23A and on 3 out of 4 die sequences on the VAM-23B, no die cracks and a normal obverse die life.

[vampicker]

Improperly hardened is not the same thing as not hardened. Van Allen's theory was that they accidentally skipped the hardening step. My contention has always been that for whatever reason this particular die was weaker than normal. That is not the same thing as Leroy's theory.

You said several times that a softer die can't survive coining. Based on what? I don't accept that the 23A/23B obverse reacted in a normal manner to the events it experience. The results (coins) are atypical because the die was atypical

I reject the notion that VAM 23B is 'normal'

[PacificWR]

Ok! Let’s look at a couple more facts. Shown below is page 2 of your September 2020 letter from LVA and jumping down to paragraph 4 it shows you sold the soft die theory to LVA and he bought it. In the letter he does mention the possibility of the 1889-P VAM-23A/VAM-23B as not going through the die hardening process at all. Anyway, you want to cut it , we are talking about a soft die and when one lets the die do the talking coupled with the known facts, they do not bear out the soft die theory. Adding a few more known facts, lets see why. 1. The obverse die for the 1889-P VAM-23A/VAM-23B had a normal die life. 2. The obverse die for the 18889-P VAM-23A/VAM-23B shows die stress, not softness and not fatigue for all die sequences except one. That one exception is the 1889-P VAM-23B die sequence #1. And why is that. The answer is in the next bullet point. 3. There are no die cracks/breaks on any of the die sequences for the 1889-P VAM-23A/VAM-23B. This would not happen when we couple it with bullet points #1 and #2. So, let’s look at see what the average number of die pieces struck per die pair were. The answer is in bullet point #4. 4. The average number of die pieces struck per die pair is 406,108 and this is proven by known mint records. If one thinks a soft die could survive that kind of mintage without any die cracks/breaks, then they are dreaming. There would be die cracks long before the average was met, and this did not happen. Just think of all the friction that occurs when a piece is struck. #5 The 1889-P VAM-23A is “The Deepest known clashed IN known in the Morgan Dollar series. The 1889-P VAM-23A/VAM-23B had a total of 4 severe clashing events (more die stress). 6. Die roughness disappears on the 1889-P VAM-23B die sequence #1 (polishing to remove the severe clashing events of VAM23A). This is important.

********************************** Click the photo to view at full resolution. ****************************************

[vampicker]

How you you possibly think there are no cracks on that obverse? What do you call that honking thing at the point of the neck? What about the big chunks at the bases of multiple letters?
Is average die life even relevant? Die this die come anywhere close to that average? How about when compared to the reverse?
In no way shape or form did this obverse have a 'normal' life. The reverse may have had a more normal life apart from its relation with this obverse.
I stand by my theory and find your argument unconvincing.

[vampicker]

I recall a presentation @messydesk did at VAM Thing a couple of years ago on 81-O varieties. He had found a mint die usage log with pieces struck and some dies noted with a reason for retirement. One specifically got pulled from use for being "too soft". Go figure that there's a variety that looks like it was struck by a die that looks like what we're discussing.

Re: A clarification of why Roger Burdette is posting on VAM World
Post by messydesk » Wed Nov 13, 2019 9:25 am

Thanks for doing this. One thing I find rewarding about this hobby is when you can point to things on coins that show demonstrate what people wrote in these documents or letters. Likewise, having a document turn up that backs up what you're noticing about a coin is also pretty cool. For example, in a presentation I did about 1881-O, I showed that the VAM 16 (PL, collapsed reverse) was both a rare and cool coin as a result of studying @HawkeEye's collection. Then along comes a partial 81-O die usage report showing a reverse die that got very little use and was withdrawn because it was "too soft." No way to prove it, but that could have been VAM 16. The connection with those who made these things we collect is pretty cool.
Welcome to the VAMWorld 2.0 discussion boards. R.I.P. old VAMWorld.

[PacificWR]

Ok. That big chunk that you are referring to on the 1889-P VAM-23B is the LDS of die sequence #4 and LVA in his plate photo list it as a “Die Chip”, not a die crack or a die break. Next, “What about the big chunks at the bases of multiple letters?” LVA calls it die roughness, not a die crack or a die break. These are all indicators of die stress. In all the 1889-P VAM-23A/VAM-23B official die descriptions, not one word is mentioned of a die crack or die break. These are all facts. The 1889-P VAM-23B die sequence #4 LDS is probably where the obverse die was taken out of service and retired, but not before it was used to strike the average number of coins for that die pair (normal die life). Guess what? I have all the available mint records for the 1889-P and not one word is mentioned about a soft die. Not one (this is another fact). You can choose to ignore all the facts and supporting numbers if you want to, but that is not how I operate. I go with what the die tells me and the facts (including mint records).