Possible new finds

General discussion board about VAMs, but no buy/sell offers
L2Arrington
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Possible new finds

Post by L2Arrington » Fri Jul 08, 2022 3:02 am

Hello. My name is Loy and I am new here, still trying to find my way around the site, so I hope I am posting this in the right place.
I have 2 Morgans that I would like to have looked at. The first is an 1882 S with denticle die clash in front of Liberty's face. The second is an 1880 S 80/79/78 incuse S in the lower right side curve of the second 8 and maybe some collar clash. Thank you
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fogie
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Re: Possible new finds

Post by fogie » Fri Jul 08, 2022 5:07 pm

Your denticle clash is not a clash - it is where 2 COINS "clashed" together and one left little dents in the other. A clash - as a numismatist is concerned- is where the dies that produce the coins clash together and the little dents wind up on the DIE. Denticle clashes on the coin are raised BUMPS on the coin.

L2Arrington
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Re: Possible new finds

Post by L2Arrington » Sat Jul 09, 2022 3:54 pm

Denticle doubling?

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vampicker
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Re: Possible new finds

Post by vampicker » Sat Jul 09, 2022 4:12 pm

It's a hit from the reeding on another dollar. Commonly called a bagmark. It is not a variety feature.
often the crusher of hopes and dreams

keilg1
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Re: Possible new finds

Post by keilg1 » Sat Jul 09, 2022 4:43 pm

Hi Loy and welcome to the site.

Don't want to sound condescending but to get 'new finds' requires a lot of ruling things out - matter of fact, you must rule out everything already described in order to find a true discovery coin.

This means first you must ensure you've checked all the major descriptions, first, before getting into things like collar clashes or other minor PUPs (pick up points).

I'm sure you've seen the main page: http://ec2-13-58-222-16.us-east-2.compu ... Ms_by_Date. Choose your date, like the 1880-S you mention (http://ec2-13-58-222-16.us-east-2.compu ... 880-S_VAMs, look under the appropriate mint mark size (medium or large) or by date descriptions (or pitted dies, acid treated dies or dashes under 8 varieties) depending on what attributes your coin has.

Then, begin ruling everything out - but remembering that VAMs are based on characteristics of the coin(s), not specifically the dies used - see http://ec2-13-58-222-16.us-east-2.compu ... m/wiki/VAM. Try to not designate things in ways that haven't been - 'incuse S in the lower right side curve of the second 8' - or are not likely possible based on how the coins were minted. Always be weary of PMD (post-mint damage) that makes the coin appear different than what has been described, but that has nothing to do with how the coin was minted (just how it was abused afterwards).

By the way, the early San Fran mints, mostly for 1878-1881 but not much different for 1882, were years that the mint produced a LOT of different varieties - and can often drive the most seasoned and sane VAMmer a bit bonkers. Yet, if you like a challenge - these are a wonderful place for you to start!

Welcome to the craziness. It's addictive but mostly without the hangovers from other vices...

Gary

L2Arrington
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Re: Possible new finds

Post by L2Arrington » Mon Jul 25, 2022 11:43 am

I concede that this is not a denticle die clash. Though I don't see a bag mark or a contact mark from another coin. When I saw the pyramid shapes, excitement overwhelmed reason. Who hasn't felt that?
Also, thanks for the advice Gary. But I followed all of the new protocols on Vam World, to the letter, before joining this discussion forum. I preferred the previous protocols better. It's the same amount of work but you only had to deal with one person who really does know everything (about Morgan's). Ty
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Mediocrates007
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Re: Possible new finds

Post by Mediocrates007 » Mon Jul 25, 2022 8:51 pm

To better understand clashed dies and get some visualization help, there is a great resource on VAM world:

http://ec2-13-58-222-16.us-east-2.compu ... e_Clashing

L2Arrington
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Re: Possible new finds

Post by L2Arrington » Mon Jul 25, 2022 10:17 pm

Mediocrates007 wrote:
Mon Jul 25, 2022 8:51 pm
To better understand clashed dies and get some visualization help, there is a great resource on VAM world:

http://ec2-13-58-222-16.us-east-2.compu ... e_Clashing
Hi! Thanks for your help! I have already searched out that link months ago. It helped with other Morgan's I have but not this 1882 S. There is what looks like (on the reverse) the left half of the B in the right half of the O in DOLLAR and the right half of the B in the vertical shaft of the first L. Also there is what looks like an I south of the mint mark adjacent to and against the bottom left of the O in DOLLAR.
On the obverse, on the shaft of the B is what looks like the right half of the O in DOLLAR and in the upper and lower holes of the B you can see what appears to be the left half of the vertical shaft of the first L in DOLLAR from serif to serif.
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L2Arrington
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Re: Possible new finds

Post by L2Arrington » Mon Jul 25, 2022 10:19 pm

L2Arrington wrote:
Mon Jul 25, 2022 10:17 pm
Mediocrates007 wrote:
Mon Jul 25, 2022 8:51 pm
To better understand clashed dies and get some visualization help, there is a great resource on VAM world:

http://ec2-13-58-222-16.us-east-2.compu ... e_Clashing
Hi! Thanks for your help! I have already searched out that link months ago. It helped with other Morgan's I have but not this 1882 S. There is what looks like (on the reverse) the left half of the B in the right half of the O in DOLLAR and the right half of the B in the vertical shaft of the first L. Also there is what looks like an I south of the mint mark adjacent to and against the bottom left of the O in DOLLAR.
On the obverse, on the shaft of the B is what looks like the right half of the O in DOLLAR and in the upper and lower holes of the B you can see what appears to be the left half of the vertical shaft of the first L in DOLLAR from serif to serif.
Is there enough letter transfer for classification?

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vampicker
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Re: Possible new finds

Post by vampicker » Tue Jul 26, 2022 12:15 am

Clashing occurs when the dies hit each other without a planchet in between. Clash marks are typically found in the highest points of the die first, and these will be the strongest marks. These must be present if there is even the slightest chance of any sort of clash showing in a deeper part of the die. The highest points on Morgan Dollar dies are the fields. I see no evidence of actual clashing on this piece.
often the crusher of hopes and dreams

L2Arrington
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Re: Possible new finds

Post by L2Arrington » Tue Jul 26, 2022 1:25 am

It is quite possible also that the mint polished off any evidence of the clash from the field to keep from having to rebuild a die. And the L inside the B is in the high point of the B. And I believe that I have evidence of the mint doing just that on another Morgan.

L2Arrington
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Re: Possible new finds

Post by L2Arrington » Tue Jul 26, 2022 2:00 am

Also this 1882 S has this anomaly on the Eagle's right foot.
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ljs123
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Re: Possible new finds

Post by ljs123 » Tue Jul 26, 2022 2:54 am

L2Arrington wrote:
Mon Jul 25, 2022 10:19 pm
L2Arrington wrote:
Mon Jul 25, 2022 10:17 pm
Mediocrates007 wrote:
Mon Jul 25, 2022 8:51 pm
To better understand clashed dies and get some visualization help, there is a great resource on VAM world:

http://ec2-13-58-222-16.us-east-2.compu ... e_Clashing
Hi! Thanks for your help! I have already searched out that link months ago. It helped with other Morgan's I have but not this 1882 S. There is what looks like (on the reverse) the left half of the B in the right half of the O in DOLLAR and the right half of the B in the vertical shaft of the first L. Also there is what looks like an I south of the mint mark adjacent to and against the bottom left of the O in DOLLAR.
On the obverse, on the shaft of the B is what looks like the right half of the O in DOLLAR and in the upper and lower holes of the B you can see what appears to be the left half of the vertical shaft of the first L in DOLLAR from serif to serif.
Is there enough letter transfer for classification?

I am sorry to have you say this because you are not going to like the answer.
There is not enough letter transfer for classification because nothing that you have shown is letter transfer from a set of dies clashing together.

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vampicker
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Re: Possible new finds

Post by vampicker » Tue Jul 26, 2022 2:56 am

Maybe it's time to forget about what you think you see and look thru the listings for marriages with the mintmark tilted strongly to the left. There's only a couple of options. Imagination can help you once you understand the basics within this field, but honestly right now you are doing yourself a disservice. Maybe someone else can chime in here and tell you my opinions carry a fair amount of weight. VAM World is a small world.
often the crusher of hopes and dreams

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ljs123
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Re: Possible new finds

Post by ljs123 » Tue Jul 26, 2022 3:13 am

L2Arrington wrote:
Mon Jul 25, 2022 11:43 am
I concede that this is not a denticle die clash. Though I don't see a bag mark or a contact mark from another coin. When I saw the pyramid shapes, excitement overwhelmed reason. Who hasn't felt that?
Also, thanks for the advice Gary. But I followed all of the new protocols on Vam World, to the letter, before joining this discussion forum. I preferred the previous protocols better. It's the same amount of work but you only had to deal with one person who really does know everything (about Morgan's). Ty

I’m not sure if you are making a reference to Mr. Van Allen. If that is the “one person” you are talking about, he is no longer receiving coins for review and listing. He has handed that off to two men for Morgan dollars and another man for Peace Dollars.
One of the two Morgan Experts has been trying to pass on his knowledge to you in this post.
We all started off as beginners. We all want the best for you to grow and enjoy VAMs.

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Unc90o
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Re: Possible new finds

Post by Unc90o » Tue Jul 26, 2022 3:16 am

On the obverse, on the shaft of the B is what looks like the right half of the O in DOLLAR and in the upper and lower holes of the B you can see what appears to be the left half of the vertical shaft of the first L in DOLLAR from serif to serif.
The letters (B, L or O, or whichever) are the lowest or deepest part of the die. What you are suggesting above as a "clashed" is impossible.

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ljs123
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Re: Possible new finds

Post by ljs123 » Tue Jul 26, 2022 3:18 am

JR
Sorry to refer to you as a Morgan Expert.
I know that you are much more than just a Morgan Expert.

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vampicker
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Re: Possible new finds

Post by vampicker » Tue Jul 26, 2022 4:04 am

No apology necessary. Being an expert with other fields does not subtract from my main gig. It really is the reason people put up with me and it's the thing that allowed me to branch out.
often the crusher of hopes and dreams

Mediocrates007
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Re: Possible new finds

Post by Mediocrates007 » Wed Jul 27, 2022 2:09 am

L2Arrington wrote:
Tue Jul 26, 2022 1:25 am
It is quite possible also that the mint polished off any evidence of the clash from the field to keep from having to rebuild a die. And the L inside the B is in the high point of the B. And I believe that I have evidence of the mint doing just that on another Morgan.
For the dies to have clashed that far to transfer those letters, I’d imagine you’d see significant clashing all over the coin. Then, for the dies to have these clashed areas polished away, you’d see evidence of beveled fields or polishing lines more than likely.

I’ve attached an 1881-O VAM-40 that shows obverse beveled fields from polishing to remove the clashing, as an example.
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L2Arrington
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Re: Possible new finds

Post by L2Arrington » Sat Jul 30, 2022 6:02 pm

vampicker wrote:
Tue Jul 26, 2022 2:56 am
Maybe it's time to forget about what you think you see and look thru the listings for marriages with the mintmark tilted strongly to the left. There's only a couple of options. Imagination can help you once you understand the basics within this field, but honestly right now you are doing yourself a disservice. Maybe someone else can chime in here and tell you my opinions carry a fair amount of weight. VAM World is a small world.
First I would like to apologize. I did not mean any disrespect and lack of etiquette. Truly. Though that is the way it came out.
Secondly, Thank You. For the advice. When I looked, I didn't see one that looked like this. Is this doubling, a contact mark or fatigue?
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