Help with doubling... 1883-S

[Melvin_Deal]

Hi everybody. I posted on the sticky doubled die thread a few days ago but I don't think anybody looks at it much anymore. I have an 83-S with a ton of machine doubling on the reverse. There is some doubling that I'm uncertain of and would love to hear anybodys opinion. It'd be much appreciated. I'm not gonna post the machine doubling pics... they're on the sticky thread if anybody wants to see them.

These are of the reverse that I'm uncertain of...

[Melvin_Deal]

These are on the obverse... the cotton bolls perhaps a fatigued die???

I also attached the date... many of the 83-S'es have similar date doubling.


Thanks a million!!

-Mel

[Mediocrates007]

Have you looked at VAM-6? Appears to be similar.

[Melvin_Deal]

Hi Mediocrates007,

Thanks for that! It's missing the die chips from IGWT on the reverse.

-Mel

[Melvin_Deal]

Perhaps I should have been more clear... I apologize!

This is a VAM-2 (C3b rev. - S tilted right) but has this doubling on it. The listing for the VAM-2 has no mention of any doubling at all and describes a normal obverse with no date doubling.

I realize that most of the doubling on the reverse is machine doubling but am not sure if it all is. The doubling on the obverse (if it is indeed die doubling) is also something new or not mentioned.

I'm looking for clarity to determine if this coin warrants more study.

Thanks so much!!



-Mel

[Melvin_Deal]

Bump post.

Anybody's input on this would be most welcome! Thanks!!!

Sincerely,
-Mel

[MarkyB]

Mel....Did you attribute it? I don't see an S tilted right. It seems upright and slightly low and left. The date most resembles VAM 6. Other than wing-neck gap, there's really not a lot of other visuals to help you out. I hope this helps. GL

[keilg1]

My inexperineced 2-cents - I hope my comments are to help us all learn a bit, but they are far from official!

Can't be a VAM-2 with doubling of the date. The VAM-2 description is set without date doubling. Has to be something else.

I also do not see significant tilting of the mintmark. There is always a bit of 'wiggle' room between the descriptions but it looks pretty normal to me. I'd say the same thing about the VAM-2 picture, by the way. Regardless if it matches the VAM-2 mintmark placement or not, it isn't that VAM because of the digit doubling.

I do see, and agree with, the digit doubling - doubled 18-3 from what I see - but I don't see a 'ton' of machine doubling. There is some, for sure, but if you've ever seen a coin with massive machine doubling you'd call the current coin in question rather mild. Machine doubling doesn't make a new VAM regardless of the amount.

The digit doubling leaves you with the aforementioned VAM-6, but also the VAM-3, VAM-9, and VAM-11 -- all with 'Doubled 18-3' descriptions with normal MM placements. The other doubled 18-3 potentials, VAM-12 and VAM-14, are ruled out because of their clear MM placement differences.

You'd need to look at each of these carefully to see if other PUPs lend you to land on one over the others.

I'd be interested to hear what is eventually decided so I can learn more. Thanks for letting me chime in.

Gary

[Melvin_Deal]

Thank you so much GL and Gary!!! Your input is greatly appreciated and I hope one day I may be able to return it!

The location of the mintmark closely resembles that of VAM-6 but this one appears to be tilted ever so slightly right in comparison. There are some die chips in the IGWT on VAM-6 that aren't present here. Also the wing-neck gap is different... this one being more bland and plain. There are also differences in the date doubling though similarities do exist.

The mark most closely resembles that in the VAM-2... thats why I called it so. C3b reverse. VAM-2 is the only listing with this reverse, With close examination, the S does appear to be slightly rotated to the right as opposed to the C3a reverse.

The machine doubling is largely in the northern hemisphere and I didn't include photos specifically of it. The IGWT and Motto are covered with it.

There are some polish lines on the southern hemisphere of the reverse. Most notably between the bow and tail feathers. I also see some roughness (possible pitting) on the end of the Eagle's right wing. I've attached a few more photos.

The more I look at this coin the more I'm stumped. The 83-S listings aren't the best documented.

I really appreciate it!!!

[Melvin_Deal]

Pitted Wing???

[Melvin_Deal]

This is kind of interesting too. Crack?? Gouge??