1924-P: How would you attribute this Rim?

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1924-P: How would you attribute this Rim below the date ?

Poll ended at Fri Jun 03, 2022 6:57 pm

Some type of PMD:
0
No votes
Collar Clash:
1
50%
Sorry, can not be determined from just one photo:
1
50%
 
Total votes: 2

Geseas
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1924-P: How would you attribute this Rim?

Post by Geseas » Fri May 27, 2022 6:57 pm

Thanks everyone!
Attachments
laird_1924_P_ Vam 2a_006 (1).jpg
laird_1924_P_ Vam 2a_006 (1).jpg (202.74 KiB) Viewed 1068 times
Last edited by Geseas on Fri May 27, 2022 9:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

RogerRock
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Re: 1924-P: How would you attribute this Rim?

Post by RogerRock » Fri May 27, 2022 9:22 pm

Rim errors are caused by several different mechanical and die installation mishaps. Many double rims occur from vertical and/or horizontal misalignment of obverse/reverse die. Malfunction of the third die (collar die) can result in partial collar errors. Collar clashes occur when a misaligned hammer die contacts the edge of the collar die.

Photo of 1924 P appears to show a doubled rim below date from slightly misaligned obverse die.
Stage 3 TERMINAL DIE STATE SILVER DOLLAR EXPLORER

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Longstrider
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Re: 1924-P: How would you attribute this Rim?

Post by Longstrider » Fri May 27, 2022 10:15 pm

Well I think @RogerRock said it all. Thanks I learned today and on a Peace Dollar.🐍

Geseas
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Re: 1924-P: How would you attribute this Rim?

Post by Geseas » Fri May 27, 2022 11:18 pm

I am learning also a clash on the obverse of a Peace Dollar is a rare thing.
I have only found information on one so far in my search for some kind of comparison.
It is on a 1921 Peace Vam-1AC:
DKC1921_VAM_1AC.jpg
DKC1921_VAM_1AC.jpg (178.75 KiB) Viewed 1032 times
I will get more photos once I have the coin in hand... Thanks for the input.

RogerRock
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Re: 1924-P: How would you attribute this Rim?

Post by RogerRock » Sat May 28, 2022 12:07 am

Geseas wrote:
Fri May 27, 2022 11:18 pm
I am learning also a clash on the obverse of a Peace Dollar is a rare thing.
I have only found information on one so far in my search for some kind of comparison.
It is on a 1921 Peace Vam-1AC:DKC1921_VAM_1AC.jpg

I will get more photos once I have the coin in hand... Thanks for the input.
Reason for rarity of collar clash on obverse Peace Dollar die is collar clashes generally occur on the hammer die. In fact, the hammer die on Peace Dollars is the reverse die.
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Geseas
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Re: 1924-P: How would you attribute this Rim?

Post by Geseas » Sat May 28, 2022 7:11 pm

Thanks @RogerRock
I found info on another coin that I guess you could call an 'anvil die rim clash'. It is a 1921 Peace Vam-1K2. I think they have a different 'look' than the more common hammer die rim clash. Here is a picture:
Jb_21pcv1k2-obv (1).jpg
Jb_21pcv1k2-obv (1).jpg (230.53 KiB) Viewed 984 times

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messydesk
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Re: 1924-P: How would you attribute this Rim?

Post by messydesk » Sat May 28, 2022 7:13 pm

The dies were reversed for 1921 Peace dollars. The obverse was the hammer die for these.
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Geseas
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Re: 1924-P: How would you attribute this Rim?

Post by Geseas » Sat May 28, 2022 8:50 pm

Thanks once again, John.
I think the only way I am going to understand the minting process is to try and operate one of those vintage presses; in person...then you will see some errors. :)

davidkclose
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Re: 1924-P: How would you attribute this Rim?

Post by davidkclose » Sun May 29, 2022 1:35 am

For 1921 Peace dollars, the mint was experimenting with which die should be the hammer die. The 1921 VAM 1F2 has a collar clash on the reverse, whereas the VAM 1K2 and VAM 1AC have the collar clash on the obverse.
On all later dates, collar clashes occur on the reverse.

Geseas
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Re: 1924-P: How would you attribute this Rim?

Post by Geseas » Sun May 29, 2022 5:44 pm

davidkclose wrote:
Sun May 29, 2022 1:35 am
For 1921 Peace dollars, the mint was experimenting with which die should be the hammer die. The 1921 VAM 1F2 has a collar clash on the reverse, whereas the VAM 1K2 and VAM 1AC have the collar clash on the obverse.
On all later dates, collar clashes occur on the reverse.
Thank you for all your contributions!

As long as I have you online, please look at the Reverse of this 1924 coin.
I just found one photo I took a while back. I don't have this coin in hand..but maybe soon. I attributed this coin as a 1924-p Vam-2A.

--it has everything you would expect to see on a 1924-P Vam-2.

plus

--A partial missing top ray below eagle’s tail feathers

--Die break/cracks through Eagles' head and neck

--Radial die to crack thru N in UNITED and E below with displaced field

(Lousy picture...I am working on fixing this)
laird_24_Vam 2a_006.jpg
laird_24_Vam 2a_006.jpg (153.52 KiB) Viewed 877 times


...still a 1924-P Vam 2A?

In the meantime, here are some close-ups of the above photo with all the enhancements I can muster on this machine :)
laird_24_Vam 2a_006-01.jpeg
laird_24_Vam 2a_006-01.jpeg (93.45 KiB) Viewed 866 times
closeup_1st Ray  below tail.jpg
closeup_1st Ray below tail.jpg (155.74 KiB) Viewed 864 times
Die breaks neck_head.jpg
Die breaks neck_head.jpg (384.71 KiB) Viewed 863 times
Last edited by Geseas on Tue Jun 14, 2022 8:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

davidkclose
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Re: 1924-P: How would you attribute this Rim?

Post by davidkclose » Sat Jun 04, 2022 9:18 pm

VAM 2A. The coin is worn enough that the doubling is difficult to see.

Geseas
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Re: 1924-P: How would you attribute this Rim?

Post by Geseas » Fri Jun 10, 2022 5:00 pm

davidkclose wrote:
Sat Jun 04, 2022 9:18 pm
VAM 2A. The coin is worn enough that the doubling is difficult to see.
Thank you!

If there is no objection, I would like to add two photos to the 1924-P Vam-2A page.

download/file.php?id=30911

and:

download/file.php?id=30991

My thinking on photograph additions to Vam pages is 'better than nothing.' I would sure like some input on this subject. I do not want to mess up anything on this great site.

I think I am destined to have fun and learn with these worn coins :) (If you believe in such things)

I will switch my LFCP's photographs out for better ones you may have...let me know.



...as long as I have you online :)
Please take a close look at these two Peace Dollar 'Cutthroats'. @RogerRock called it that in this thread awhile back. Good name.
Peace Cutthroats_compare.jpg
Peace Cutthroats_compare.jpg (73.58 KiB) Viewed 489 times
I do not have either of these coins, just the pictures from this site.

The coin on the left is the coin we are looking at in this thread; A 1924-P Vam-2A. --- On the right is a 1923-P Vam 1Q2.

Both are the same Reverse.

In this next photo, I will attempt to indicate the die crack in 1923 that will become a die break on the 1924 coin.
19231q21_3 (1).jpg
19231q21_3 (1).jpg (196.38 KiB) Viewed 291 times
Here is that thread by @Windycity where I am getting the 1923-P Vam 1Q2 photographs from:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=6521

There is another area on the Rev. of 1923 where you can see the start of the radial die crack that ends up
defining the 1924-P Vam. 2A. It is at the 'U' in 'UNITED' with the 'E' underneath.
19231q2r (1).jpg
19231q2r (1).jpg (517.46 KiB) Viewed 412 times
Here it is on the 1924 w/displaced field:
DKC1924_VAM_2A (1).jpg
DKC1924_VAM_2A (1).jpg (148.4 KiB) Viewed 411 times
1923-1924_compare.jpg
1923-1924_compare.jpg (75.89 KiB) Viewed 317 times

what I am unable to figure out here is; What happens to the die crack on the Eagle's neck in the 1923 coin? It just seems to disappear. Maybe it wasn't a die crack at all but rather a lamination error. I can't tell without the coins or close-up photos. Great Fun!

I think a good close-up of the lower loop in 'B' of 'PLURIBUS' on both of these coins would be the answer to what is going on here. The intersection of two cracks forms an X there...I think :)

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