1921 D VAM 1L[?] Is it 2, 3 or a new 4?

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Raybob15239
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1921 D VAM 1L[?] Is it 2, 3 or a new 4?

Post by Raybob15239 » Tue May 03, 2022 4:55 pm

Picked up a 21-D that is part of the VAM 1L family. There are no pictures on the 1L3 page, so I am at a bit of a loss.

Here's the full coin pics:
20220503_124605.jpg
20220503_124605.jpg (123.59 KiB) Viewed 996 times
20220503_124631.jpg
20220503_124631.jpg (158.51 KiB) Viewed 996 times
The scribbles area is devoid of all detail and the right wing is overpolished, removing feather details.
20220503_124049.jpg
20220503_124049.jpg (85.57 KiB) Viewed 996 times
20220503_124046.jpg
20220503_124046.jpg (106.46 KiB) Viewed 996 times
The M break is a later progression:
Screenshot_20220503-124405_Gallery.jpg
Screenshot_20220503-124405_Gallery.jpg (42.82 KiB) Viewed 996 times
Is this 1L3 or could it it be a new addition to the family? @@messydesk and @@vampicker, can you offer any insight? Thanks!
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DHalladay
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Re: 1921 D VAM 1L[?] Is it 2, 3 or a new 4?

Post by DHalladay » Tue May 03, 2022 5:11 pm

There are more scribbles there than you think. Take your strongest loupe and look at it from the 3 o'clock position with a light source over your right shoulder.

Without seeing the coin in hand I'm leaning more toward 1L2.
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Raybob15239
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Re: 1921 D VAM 1L[?] Is it 2, 3 or a new 4?

Post by Raybob15239 » Tue May 03, 2022 5:20 pm

Not seeing any, but I only have a 10x triplet at the office.
20220503_131845.jpg
20220503_131845.jpg (67.47 KiB) Viewed 989 times
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hairfield1
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Re: 1921 D VAM 1L[?] Is it 2, 3 or a new 4?

Post by hairfield1 » Tue May 03, 2022 5:21 pm

Looks like 1L1 to me :popcorn:

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Re: 1921 D VAM 1L[?] Is it 2, 3 or a new 4?

Post by DHalladay » Tue May 03, 2022 5:43 pm

Here are pixs of what I'm calling 1L2... but maybe I'm wrong?
scribbles small.jpg
scribbles small.jpg (309.12 KiB) Viewed 986 times
OF_AM small.jpg
OF_AM small.jpg (200.17 KiB) Viewed 986 times
bust tip.jpg
bust tip.jpg (185.25 KiB) Viewed 986 times
L stars 1-2-3.jpg
L stars 1-2-3.jpg (262.5 KiB) Viewed 986 times
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messydesk
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Re: 1921 D VAM 1L[?] Is it 2, 3 or a new 4?

Post by messydesk » Tue May 03, 2022 8:22 pm

The listings are a bit of a mess, to say the least. All cite the die break at AM, which should really only be on the late die stage. What makes sense if there are to be 3 stages is (1) scribbles on a fresh die, (2) die break not fully developed, (3) full die break on M. The other stuff is noise and leads to threads like this one. Here's Leroy's picture of 1L3, although it doesn't fix any of the confusion.
1921 D VAM 1L3 Break MER.jpg
1921 D VAM 1L3 Break MER.jpg (217.79 KiB) Viewed 975 times
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Raybob15239
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Re: 1921 D VAM 1L[?] Is it 2, 3 or a new 4?

Post by Raybob15239 » Tue May 03, 2022 9:24 pm

Here's mine. If this is what makes it 1L3, is mine the 3 then?[attachment=0]20220503_172207.jpg[/attachment]
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20220503_172207.jpg
20220503_172207.jpg (91.86 KiB) Viewed 968 times
20220503_124042.jpg
20220503_124042.jpg (97.55 KiB) Viewed 968 times

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Re: 1921 D VAM 1L[?] Is it 2, 3 or a new 4?

Post by DHalladay » Tue May 03, 2022 10:23 pm

John:

Thanks for joining this discussion!
Here's the break across the top of the M of my coin, which looks to be MUCH more pronounced than the plate image. Or is that just an illusion?

AMER break.jpg
AMER break.jpg (160.09 KiB) Viewed 962 times
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messydesk
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Re: 1921 D VAM 1L[?] Is it 2, 3 or a new 4?

Post by messydesk » Tue May 03, 2022 11:59 pm

It is more pronounced. It matches the original VAM 1L. So which is it? The fact that it is difficult to say leads me to think the best solution may be to scrap the current 1L1, 1L2, and 1L3 and create new ones as I mentioned above, yours being 1L3. It wouldn't really be that disruptive, since most of the current coins are probably already wrong.
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Re: 1921 D VAM 1L[?] Is it 2, 3 or a new 4?

Post by DHalladay » Wed May 04, 2022 12:29 am

messydesk wrote:
Tue May 03, 2022 11:59 pm
It is more pronounced. It matches the original VAM 1L. So which is it? The fact that it is difficult to say leads me to think the best solution may be to scrap the current 1L1, 1L2, and 1L3 and create new ones as I mentioned above, yours being 1L3. It wouldn't really be that disruptive, since most of the current coins are probably already wrong.
Can we please do that?
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RogerRock
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Re: 1921 D VAM 1L[?] Is it 2, 3 or a new 4?

Post by RogerRock » Wed May 04, 2022 1:37 am

Submitted my LDS 1921 D VAM 1L3 twice to LVA, in August 12 2018 and again in April 22 2021. Both times resulted in additional descriptions as VAM 1L3. First revision "added breaks above TATES OF to description". Second revision added "plus break above wing tip to A". No plate photos were included on both revisions. This 1921 D is slabbed in ANACS MS 63 1921 D $ VAM 1L3 #6229053.

Coin pictured by Dennis is a 1921 D $ VAM 1L3. Photos need to posted for 1921 D VAM 1L3.
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messydesk
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Re: 1921 D VAM 1L[?] Is it 2, 3 or a new 4?

Post by messydesk » Wed May 04, 2022 1:58 pm

DHalladay wrote:
Wed May 04, 2022 12:29 am
messydesk wrote:
Tue May 03, 2022 11:59 pm
It is more pronounced. It matches the original VAM 1L. So which is it? The fact that it is difficult to say leads me to think the best solution may be to scrap the current 1L1, 1L2, and 1L3 and create new ones as I mentioned above, yours being 1L3. It wouldn't really be that disruptive, since most of the current coins are probably already wrong.
Can we please do that?
Send me the coins I need to document it properly and I will.
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Raybob15239
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Re: 1921 D VAM 1L[?] Is it 2, 3 or a new 4?

Post by Raybob15239 » Wed May 04, 2022 3:26 pm

Mine seems to have more displacement at the A M break. Would it make sense for you to have the various coins in hand? I am happy to send mine if it helps.
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Re: 1921 D VAM 1L[?] Is it 2, 3 or a new 4?

Post by vamsterdam » Wed May 04, 2022 5:19 pm

i have seen multiple examples of this vam, slabbed unattributed this year, including another one at CSNS.

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Re: 1921 D VAM 1L[?] Is it 2, 3 or a new 4?

Post by DHalladay » Wed May 04, 2022 7:26 pm

Here is a coin I bought from Rob Joyce. He believes it was the plate coin for VAM 1AC in his book, "Fun With 1921". The crazy thing is, according to the VAM 1BG attribution page, 1AC was later eliminated after it was found to be VAM 1BG. Except this VAM 1AC is actually an EDS example of VAM 1L:

small 1AC holder.jpg
small 1AC holder.jpg (172.84 KiB) Viewed 897 times
small LFCP obv.jpg
small LFCP obv.jpg (263.56 KiB) Viewed 897 times
small LFCP rev.jpg
small LFCP rev.jpg (284.31 KiB) Viewed 897 times
small 1AC scribbles.jpg
small 1AC scribbles.jpg (353.79 KiB) Viewed 897 times
small cracks 0.jpg
small cracks 0.jpg (294.65 KiB) Viewed 897 times
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Re: 1921 D VAM 1L[?] Is it 2, 3 or a new 4?

Post by DHalladay » Wed May 04, 2022 7:27 pm

small cracks 1-2-3.jpg
small cracks 1-2-3.jpg (376.89 KiB) Viewed 897 times
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