Do you see what I see?

Post by **messydesk** » Mon Apr 04, 2022 1:10 am

I'll let you know what I see later.

: jb_97sv17-1.jpg (132.51 KiB) Viewed 3551 times

HawkeEye · Post by **HawkeEye** » Mon Apr 04, 2022 1:14 am

Well I thought it was an S over something, but the more I look the more I think the upper loop of the S has a lot of pitting. What else?

Mhomei · Post by **Mhomei** » Mon Apr 04, 2022 2:57 am

are you thinking its upside down??

Post by **messydesk** » Mon Apr 04, 2022 3:18 am

Mhomei wrote: ↑
Mon Apr 04, 2022 2:57 am
are you thinking its upside down??

Yup

I found a cleaner mint mark to photograph to confirm that there is a right-side up.

: mm1.jpg (170.16 KiB) Viewed 3530 times

: mm2.jpg (168.9 KiB) Viewed 3530 times

vampicker · Post by **vampicker** » Mon Apr 04, 2022 1:19 pm

That is inverted. Cool. If you're having trouble distinguishing top from bottom, it's easier to see with a few coins in hand. In nomenclature this is the Type IV Medium S that was used from 1879 thru 1900. There are years at the beginning and end that overlap, so doublecheck that you've got the right style in hand. The overall shape of the top and bottom is very similar, but there is a noticeable difference in the way the curved sections meet their respective serifs. On a normal upright example, the upper curve meets the serif at a fairly shallow angle. On the bottom, the curve comes in at a much steeper angle. It's subtle, but once you see it, the difference is clear.

Post by **messydesk** » Mon Apr 04, 2022 1:53 pm

This 97-S die pair has the obverse of VAM 17 and the reverse shown for VAM 1B. To add to the confusion, the pictures on the VAM 1B page that aren't Leroy's are also the VAM 17 obverse. There is no counter-clash on this one, the coin is PL, and there are die polishing lines in the mouth and nose. There are remnants of a clash on the reverse. I'll be listing this as VAM 19 (Doubled 18, Inverted S). Alan's study of 97-S didn't turn up any difference between VAMs 17 and 1B but that may be due to the misplaced pictures and/or the subtle nature of the counter-clash. Assuming the discovery VAM 1B is out there and has a different obverse from this coin, I would assign it a different number based on the inverted mint mark.

Another thing of note is that the inside of the lower loop of the S on the subject coin has texture much like that of the inside of the upper loop of the S on many coins. This could be something that's on the S punch itself and not polishing marks added to the die.

I imagine there may be other inverted S coins out there. One problem is that you need a fairly clean mint mark to see it. Too much wear or a poorly placed hit and you won't be able to tell. I haven't looked into the large V S mint mark to see if it has a right-side up.

Unc90o · Post by **Unc90o** » Mon Apr 04, 2022 2:08 pm

I discovered 1B. The non Leroy's photo on 1B page does not match the discovery coin.
So yes, the obverse of VAM-1B is different than your coin.
I can add some 1B photos later.

Post by **messydesk** » Mon Apr 04, 2022 2:18 pm

Unc90o wrote: ↑
Mon Apr 04, 2022 2:08 pm
I discovered 1B. The non Leroy's photo on 1B page does not match the discovery coin.
So yes, the obverse of VAM-1B is different than your coin.
I can add some 1B photos later.

Excellent! I'll remove the incorrect pictures.

Unc90o · Post by **Unc90o** » Tue Apr 05, 2022 12:32 am

Pictures taken from the discovery coin. Could someone please add them to the 1897-S VAM-1B page?

Date placement

: NM_1897-S_VAM-1B_Date.jpg (139.86 KiB) Viewed 3424 times

Polishing line at right serif of L and gouge upper serif of I

: NM_1897-S_VAM-1B_LIB.jpg (155.24 KiB) Viewed 3424 times

Note: die crack hiding above designer initial and between hair

: NM_1897-S_VAM-1B_DI.jpg (110.91 KiB) Viewed 3424 times

: NM_1897-S_VAM-1B_Hair.jpg (130.59 KiB) Viewed 3424 times

PacificWR · Post by **PacificWR** » Tue Apr 05, 2022 4:21 am

I'll update the VAM-1B page.

pup_picker · Post by **pup_picker** » Tue Apr 05, 2022 5:07 am

nice find

Mike7E · Post by **Mike7E** » Tue Apr 05, 2022 2:15 pm

Another difference, though subtle, is the thickness of the S at the top and bottom crossovers. Normal side up has the thinner crossover at the top. Of course doesn't matter on many of those mushy MMs.

madbirder · Post by **madbirder** » Tue Apr 05, 2022 8:57 pm

Mike7E wrote: ↑
Tue Apr 05, 2022 2:15 pm
Another difference, though subtle, is the thickness of the S at the top and bottom crossovers. Normal side up has the thinner crossover at the top. Of course doesn't matter on many of those mushy MMs.

I noticed that as well but what stuck out to me was the depth of the V where the serif meets the main body of the S. The upper triangle is shallower than the lower triangle. Even in somewhat mushy examples this will still often hold true.

None the less, it's still cool and I would not have noticed it if it hadn't been pointed out to me in the first place.

PacificWR · Post by **PacificWR** » Wed Apr 06, 2022 3:34 am

The VAM-1B page has been updated.

Dirtdoctor · Post by **Dirtdoctor** » Fri Dec 16, 2022 3:36 pm

I was never able to assign a VAM to this 1897 S. The obverse matches the new VAM 19 nicely. Ear, Hair D, and Eye gouges; date position, etc. I think it has the inverted S, but no gouges in Bow or Wreath as in 19 or 20.

Is this an inverted S, and some variety of VAM 19?