Help with 1886-P (Eight in Denticles)

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colwillys
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Re: Help with 1886-P (Eight in Denticles)

Post by colwillys » Wed Mar 16, 2022 9:15 pm

Question? Could VAM 6B a VLDS of VAM 4 .

Vam-mysterio
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Re: Help with 1886-P (Eight in Denticles)

Post by Vam-mysterio » Wed Mar 16, 2022 9:21 pm

Vam 6B’s date position is slightly right
Compared to vam 4
Also on the vam 4
The 1 is set higher

RogerB
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Re: Help with 1886-P (Eight in Denticles)

Post by RogerB » Fri Mar 18, 2022 2:27 am

Question -- How does a digit get into the denticles; a way, way off center die contact, or?

MarkyB
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Re: Help with 1886-P (Eight in Denticles)

Post by MarkyB » Fri Mar 18, 2022 2:41 am

RogerB wrote:
Fri Mar 18, 2022 2:27 am
Question -- How does a digit get into the denticles; a way, way off center die contact, or?
I wondered same. Here's an interesting discussion on the very topic. An erratic date punch seems to be the favorite.

https://forums.collectors.com/discussio ... y-occurred

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messydesk
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Re: Help with 1886-P (Eight in Denticles)

Post by messydesk » Fri Mar 18, 2022 4:42 am

RogerB wrote:
Fri Mar 18, 2022 2:27 am
Question -- How does a digit get into the denticles; a way, way off center die contact, or?
Punch meets die in the wrong place. Why? Not sure. Minor slip, probably. Testing the die for hardness, a common explanation, doesn't make a lot of sense to me. If the die hasn't been hardened, it should take the punch, so why test it? If for some reason it's too hard to take the punch, testing on the edge of the die will ruin the punch faster than punching where the date is supposed to go.
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RogerB
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Re: Help with 1886-P (Eight in Denticles)

Post by RogerB » Sat Mar 19, 2022 2:38 am

It seems like there is some other explanation. The die sinkers in the Engraving Department were not idiots, nor clumsy louts. They did this careful work every day for decades.... By the Morgan dollar era dates were mostly in the annual hub and punches were used for touch-up, repair and re-dating.

We're missing the routine, daily grind information about die making and die repair.... :(

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lioncutter
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Re: Help with 1886-P (Eight in Denticles)

Post by lioncutter » Sat Mar 19, 2022 2:32 pm

Unless we get a historical confirmation from the person who did the punching, we shall never know. I do have my own theory on this based on my own woodworking career. Being a craftsman and like many other craftsman, we like to put our mark on our work that does not interfere with the whole look of the work. Just so we know that we made this and can identify our own work. Since many of these date digits ended up in the denticles, I believe the person doing the punching put his own mark on the die in order to say to his friends & family that he put that there on a piece of American history. JMO
I may not be the best, but I do not know anyone better.

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messydesk
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Re: Help with 1886-P (Eight in Denticles)

Post by messydesk » Sat Mar 19, 2022 4:14 pm

lioncutter wrote:
Sat Mar 19, 2022 2:32 pm
... Since many of these date digits ended up in the denticles, I believe the person doing the punching put his own mark on the die in order to say to his friends & family that he put that there on a piece of American history. JMO
Remember that we're looking at stuff that nobody saw for 100 years. Not exactly the way to "sign" work. Also, very few dies have this. Finally, I'd have to think that personalizing a working die on a whim would be an offense that would lead to a swift termination.
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lioncutter
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Re: Help with 1886-P (Eight in Denticles)

Post by lioncutter » Sat Mar 19, 2022 5:00 pm

messydesk wrote:
Sat Mar 19, 2022 4:14 pm
lioncutter wrote:
Sat Mar 19, 2022 2:32 pm
... Since many of these date digits ended up in the denticles, I believe the person doing the punching put his own mark on the die in order to say to his friends & family that he put that there on a piece of American history. JMO
Remember that we're looking at stuff that nobody saw for 100 years. Not exactly the way to "sign" work.
That is my point. Only the puncher knows this and did not want to bring any attention other than himself or a few others to know that he was the one putting that mark there. Just like any other craftsman can go back and tell you and know that they built that item because they know what to look for. JMO
I may not be the best, but I do not know anyone better.

fogie
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Re: Help with 1886-P (Eight in Denticles)

Post by fogie » Sat Mar 19, 2022 6:51 pm

It may also be that in those days beer was safer than water to drink. It was not at all unusual for folks to split a bucket of beer at lunch - perhaps 2 on Fridays...

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vampicker
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Re: Help with 1886-P (Eight in Denticles)

Post by vampicker » Sun Mar 20, 2022 12:04 am

Far too many of these end up in carefully placed locations that are not visible to the unaided eye. I don't accept this as a random act. It really does appear deliberate.
Speculation on my part, but I'd think this was a test for proper softening. Probably would only have to do one in a case of dies if there was a question about the degree of 'softening'. I've seen this theory before, but I'd lean in this direction
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Melvin_Deal
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Re: Help with 1886-P (Eight in Denticles)

Post by Melvin_Deal » Sun Mar 20, 2022 3:15 am

Hi Vampicker... that coin is on the way to ANACS now and should arrive mid to late this week. I've enclosed a note to bring it to your attention as well as an insert in the flip. There's several more in the order for verification as well including a '78 8TF VAM-9.

I really appreciate everybody here and learn much. I especially enjoy the historical stuff!

Sincerely,
-Mel

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SilverToken
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Re: Help with 1886-P (Eight in Denticles)

Post by SilverToken » Sun Mar 20, 2022 12:00 pm

Does this mean that Discovery coins should start being submitted?

The last post I saw was that it was on hold until further notice..
When it's no longer fun, I think I'm done!

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vampicker
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Re: Help with 1886-P (Eight in Denticles)

Post by vampicker » Sun Mar 20, 2022 12:11 pm

We aren't quite there yet, but we have started doing a few things. 21 scribbles are still on hold and I think Peace Dollars aren't quite really for prime time yet either.
often the crusher of hopes and dreams

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messydesk
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Re: Help with 1886-P (Eight in Denticles)

Post by messydesk » Sun Mar 20, 2022 5:01 pm

SilverToken wrote:
Sun Mar 20, 2022 12:00 pm
Does this mean that Discovery coins should start being submitted?

The last post I saw was that it was on hold until further notice..
We're still getting some of the logistics down. There are discoveries being added, but they've mostly been accidental discoveries that were part of other submissions or coins that were already well researched and "had an appointment". When new discovery submissions are opened up, things like scribble scratches will probably also be by appointment. Keep in mind this applies to Morgan dollars only for now. Peace dollars are being handled by David Close, and he will have his own guidance for when things can be submitted.
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vamsterdam
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Re: Help with 1886-P (Eight in Denticles)

Post by vamsterdam » Mon Mar 21, 2022 4:17 pm

i cannot accept random errant punches as an explanation for misplaced dates. there is an 1866 seated half with 2 digits (likely 6's in the base of the rock, 2 overlapped upper portions of 1's in the lower left shield, a 1 in the hand holding the pole, a 6 in the shield above liberty on the right side and claims of 8 other punches hidden throughout. there are so many Indian cents with 1's punched in the neck, or in the pearls, and numerous 8's punched in the hair. there is an 1878 with 3 overlapping digits in the denticles, there is an 1890 dime with 4 overlapping digits in the skirt, and they are not the same. these MPD's are often single digits, and well hidden in the denticles, or other devices. i have seen them on everything for flying eagle and indian cents, all the way to $20 gold. and also large cents. it is interesting that they disappeared in 1909 completely.

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vampicker
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Re: Help with 1886-P (Eight in Denticles)

Post by vampicker » Thu May 12, 2022 11:33 pm

Did the piece in question today. This is now officially the new VAM 33
often the crusher of hopes and dreams

Melvin_Deal
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Re: Help with 1886-P (Eight in Denticles)

Post by Melvin_Deal » Fri May 13, 2022 1:50 am

Yay!

Thank you Vampicker!! :D

Sincerely,
-Mel

blh74
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Re: Help with 1886-P (Eight in Denticles)

Post by blh74 » Fri May 13, 2022 2:34 am

Congrats on your new discovery coin.

keilg1
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Re: Help with 1886-P (Eight in Denticles)

Post by keilg1 » Fri May 13, 2022 7:01 am

Wonderful news. I was waiting to hear the end result as it certainly looked like an MPD to me (and my untrained eyes).

Congrats.

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