1878-S VAM6 DDO "RIB" with DDR and RPM...

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TheYokel
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1878-S VAM6 DDO "RIB" with DDR and RPM...

Post by TheYokel » Thu Nov 01, 2018 7:30 pm

It's three strikes and you're out, so I'll just leave eye candy while i work to find a way to take better pictures for the debatable posts I'm sure to submit every day or two, lol. Finding rare VAMs is fun. Discovering new ones is what I'm shooting for, usually :? Batting 0 for 11 so far... :lol: Anywho... The coin...

Every single letter on this coin is doubled. Front.. Back.. Rim.. Motto.. All of it.

My (at least semi) prooflike 1878-S VAM6...

Obverse and Reverse:

Image

Image

Engravers marks in wing:

Image

Broken "r":

Image

Doubling on Obverse:

Image

Image

Image

Doubled LIBERTY and leaves:

Image

Image

Image

Just a couple of the doubled letters on the Reverse. No sense in showing 20 pics... They're all like this.

Image

Image

Doubled Motto:

Image

RPM:

Image

Eye Candy:

Image

~~~~~~~~~~~

There ya go; a bunt to third base. I should be good for another 2 swings now... Lol.
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DHalladay
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Re: 1878-S VAM6 DDO "RIB" with DDR and RPM...

Post by DHalladay » Thu Nov 01, 2018 7:53 pm

Sorry, but that's not a VAM 6.
When in doubt... don't.

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Re: 1878-S VAM6 DDO "RIB" with DDR and RPM...

Post by Raybob15239 » Thu Nov 01, 2018 7:57 pm

WIth discoveries, you are going to strike out far more than you ever connect... There are many very experienced collectors who have never had a discovery of a new variety. Don't let it slow you down or make you quit. Keep looking and keep educating yourself. Look at the guides that are available on VW. Look at as many VAM pages as you can to learn what is important and what is not. This can be a very challenging and sometimes even frustrating hobby, but it can be immensely fun and rewarding. If you really want a challenge, try to attribute some 1921 P or D scribbling scratches VAMs!

Oh, and by the way, I was absolutely convinced that I saw a partial E on an 1887P at the local B&M the other day and bought the coin because of it (and probably paid a slight premium over a common unslabbed 1887P in the same grade). It turns out the partial E was a trick of the light and the mylar in the 2x2 and there was really nothing there after all. Turned out OK as it was a VAM 3A, with no clashed E, but lots of other stuff.

Point is, that you will have far more misses than hits on discoveries. Just keep learning. :D

PS, I agree that it is not VAM6. RIB is not right and the engraving in the wing/body space does not match. Take a look at VAM 35.
Last edited by Raybob15239 on Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1878-S VAM6 DDO "RIB" with DDR and RPM...

Post by TheYokel » Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:08 pm

DHalladay wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 7:53 pm
Sorry, but that's not a VAM 6.
I can't find any other listing with a missing "r", except VAM2 that it says probably doesn't exist?

What is giving it away as a non-6 boss? I'm trying very hard to be meticulous and learn as i go... I'm not sure what i passed over on this one...?
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Re: 1878-S VAM6 DDO "RIB" with DDR and RPM...

Post by Raybob15239 » Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:16 pm

Take a look at VAM 35. The r matches, as does the doubling in I and B.
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Re: 1878-S VAM6 DDO "RIB" with DDR and RPM...

Post by Raybob15239 » Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:18 pm

If you look at the VAM 6 page, you will see some photos of all the letters in the motto. Your R I B does not match at all.
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Re: 1878-S VAM6 DDO "RIB" with DDR and RPM...

Post by vincar73 » Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:25 pm

For B2 reverse varieties this is really helpful

http://ec2-13-58-222-16.us-east-2.compu ... _Varieties

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Re: 1878-S VAM6 DDO "RIB" with DDR and RPM...

Post by TheYokel » Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:11 pm

Oh didn't even look at that one because it's listed headline is about doubled stars.. And that was the one thing i didn't really see on it. And the motto on 35 isn't doubled?

It also has more prominent engraving lines between the wing and body than either of the VAM35 pictured on the list. It's only two pictures, but it's all i have to compare to... And it's pretty noticeable.

Image

Image

But the star is definitely broking off though, and VAM6 specifically says that it isn't.

This is the state mine is in. It's there but it's definitely losing some substance...

Image

Image

Help me learn from this.

So was 35 a later progression of 6 just after the star broke and the lines polished out?

Wouldn't that make 35 just a later die 6? Is this some bastard middle child?

I swear I'm taking everything being shown/told to me and trying to learn from it. I just have no idea how any of this works yet when it comes to dies...
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Re: 1878-S VAM6 DDO "RIB" with DDR and RPM...

Post by TheYokel » Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:20 pm

Raybob15239 wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:18 pm
If you look at the VAM 6 page, you will see some photos of all the letters in the motto. Your R I B does not match at all.
Does this type of doubling tend to match across all examples? I only have the one example from the list to go by, and if it was MD (which I'm assuming since it has a "slid" LIBERTY) would they all look uniform across every coin? I would think machine doubling would look just lightly different on each coin? Or was the VAM6 letters physically engraved that way?

(English sucks for written text and intent. Please don't take anything i type as argumentative... Simply trying to understand)
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Re: 1878-S VAM6 DDO "RIB" with DDR and RPM...

Post by ljs123 » Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:31 pm

Ant,
Thank you for your excitement with the hobby of VAMming and your willingness to listen and learn. There are some great 78-S experts around here so, I will let them offer better teaching than I have to offer. But I will post a photo of how a 78-S VAM-6 RIB should look.
Keep having fun! :D
78s-vam6-rib-ljs.jpg
78s-vam6-rib-ljs.jpg (77.99 KiB) Viewed 1790 times

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Re: 1878-S VAM6 DDO "RIB" with DDR and RPM...

Post by TheYokel » Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:25 pm

ljs123 wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:31 pm
Ant,
Thank you for your excitement with the hobby of VAMming and your willingness to listen and learn. There are some great 78-S experts around here so, I will let them offer better teaching than I have to offer. But I will post a photo of how a 78-S VAM-6 RIB should look.
Keep having fun! :D

78s-vam6-rib-ljs.jpg
So every VAM6 will have the same indentation above the "R" beside the edge of the coin in the denticles also?

Or is this the same coin? That would be an interesting marker to be able to look for...

Edit: this is a slightly better shot of mine...

Image

Image
Last edited by TheYokel on Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1878-S VAM6 DDO "RIB" with DDR and RPM...

Post by ljs123 » Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:33 pm

A more important marker for a VAM-6 is the doubled RIB. I was just trying to show you what a VAM-6 RIB looks like. I don't think your RIB matches. Do you?
Please remember that just about every coin has come into contact with some other object and will have a mark from that contact, even Mint State coins.

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Re: 1878-S VAM6 DDO "RIB" with DDR and RPM...

Post by TheYokel » Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:35 pm

ljs123 wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:33 pm
A more important marker for a VAM-6 is the doubled RIB. I was just trying to show you what a VAM-6 RIB looks like. I don't think your RIB matches. Do you?
Please remember that just about every coin has come into contact with some other object and will have a mark from that contact, even Mint State coins.
Updated with different pics of the letters...
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Re: 1878-S VAM6 DDO "RIB" with DDR and RPM...

Post by Raybob15239 » Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:12 pm

Ant, the best way to describe this is that each VAM is comprised of coins struck from a particular pair of dies. Typically, the markers will all be the same on every coin made from that pair of dies, but there will be die wear and cracks that will develop that eventually become big enough to warrant the creation of a new VAM which is usually designated by a letter. So a VAM 6 die pair that becomes clashed and has a letter transfer would become 6A. Sometimes a later stage is discovered before an earlier stage and the two varieties, though related, will have different numbers. To make this even more confusing, sometimes, there are multiple die pairs for the same VAM.

Every Morgan and Peace Dollar is a "VAM". Some have not yet been discovered, so they don't have a number. Many are just normal dies and have the designation of VAM 1. VAM 1 coins could have a dozen or more die pairs. They are best described as unremarkable with no distinguishing features.

As for doubling, you can have VAMs that have no doubling, but still find doubled legends, mottos or features. This could be machine or strike doubling. That is doubling that results from striking the coin with loose dies as opposed to having the doubling occurring on th die itself.

The best think that you can do is read threads, check out attribution guides and try to learn as much as possible.
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Re: 1878-S VAM6 DDO "RIB" with DDR and RPM...

Post by TheYokel » Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:33 pm

So if the markers like the "slid" and doubled LIBERTY are specific to one die and not the result of machine imperfections... Why isn't VAM 35 just listed as VAM6B as a later stage of the die? You said the doubling occurs on the die itself... So surely no two dies would be doubled the same way or in the same places such as in the 6 and 35 unless they were the same die?
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Re: 1878-S VAM6 DDO "RIB" with DDR and RPM...

Post by ...kenny » Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:54 pm

Your starting to get it. Don't let the madness get in front of you. All the answers are here, it just takes TIME. Relax, take your time, go slow. Before long, you'll be whipping through VAMs like nobody's business... :lol:
Of all the things I've lost, I miss my.........Ah........Uhm........something, something, something..... :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: 1878-S VAM6 DDO "RIB" with DDR and RPM...

Post by ...kenny » Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:59 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQti-0zzBkc

This might help a little... :lol:
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ChiefRet.
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Re: 1878-S VAM6 DDO "RIB" with DDR and RPM...

Post by ChiefRet. » Fri Nov 02, 2018 12:02 am

VAM-6 does not have a broken fourth right star; and yours appears to have the fourth right star broken.
So, I doubt it would be a related VAM in the progression line.

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Re: 1878-S VAM6 DDO "RIB" with DDR and RPM...

Post by tbconcrete » Fri Nov 02, 2018 12:13 am

What you have is a VAM X . That reverse was used on four VAMs with that being the earliest die state of the R in TRUST. VAMs 35, 93 , 19 and 74 all share this reverse, the B2w. Ill let you figure which one.

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Re: 1878-S VAM6 DDO "RIB" with DDR and RPM...

Post by TheYokel » Fri Nov 02, 2018 12:17 am

ChiefRet. wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 12:02 am
VAM-6 does not have a broken fourth right star; and yours appears to have the fourth right star broken.
So, I doubt it would be a related VAM in the progression line.
That is *why* i think it makes sense.

VAM 6 and VAM 35 share everything down to the missing "r". The differences between the two are that the lines between the wing and body have been polished out (the extra feather remains) and that the star is broken.

In my mind it makes perfect sense that the two VAMs are the same dies in different stages of age.

VAM6 has very distinct lines between the wing and body. 35 does not. Mine definitely does.

VAM6 has no broken star. VAM35 does. Mine has a partially missing star that does not match the amount missing in VAM35.

Everything else matches up between the two including the "slide" lines in LIBERTY.

My train of thought says that the die used for VAM6 got repaired/polished to remove the marks in the wing and became VAM35 (while leaving the extra feather shared between the two). Same die with two slightly different markers.

Again... I'm 0-for-11... Maybe this is why lol... But this is where my brain goes...
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