OT - 2007 P GW$ Elongated Third Ray

General discussion board about VAMs, but no buy/sell offers
RogerRock
Posts: 623
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:40 am

OT - 2007 P GW$ Elongated Third Ray

Post by RogerRock » Sat Feb 26, 2022 11:20 pm

Just received email from Bill Fivaz : "I think you'll be pleased to learn that I was successful in getting Whitman's OK to include the 2007 P GW $1.00 Elongated Ray variety in the upcoming volume of the Cherrypickers Guide. I am also hoping to add an image of it to the cover as one of the featured coins for this issue. The FS number is FS-C1-(2007 P) GW-901."

This email was also sent to John Wexler, David Lange, Tom DeLorey, and Tom Koolick.

The 2007 P George Washington $ "Elongated Third Ray" variety has been my greatest challenge to vindicate as the only significant design change variety in the entire presidential series. Two articles were written in CoinWorld addressing this controversial variety, including one about my find in the Nov. 17 2008 monthly publication entitled "2007 Presidential dollar shows evidence of modified die". John Wexler also addressed this variety twice in Coin World Weekly. My article on this "Elongated Third Ray" was published in CONECA's ErrorScope Vol 18 No 2 March/April 2009 issue entitled "New Variety Named on 2007 P Washington $". The first initial success with ICG was recognition, as a variety named "Elongated Third Ray", by their expert Tim Hargis.

Specimen were sent to Bill Fivaz, John Wexler, CONECA, and ICG for in hand inspection. I have found only two
with this long ray. This "Elongated Third Ray" has been listed on John Wexler's website under his "UFO" heading for some time.

Although I have been listed as a contributor in the CherryPickers' Guide for some time, this will be my first named variety inducted with new FS number assigned. All major grading services recognize FS varieties on their labels.
Stage 3 TERMINAL DIE STATE SILVER DOLLAR EXPLORER

Tekkie1
Posts: 510
Joined: Thu May 31, 2018 1:07 am

Re: OT - 2007 P GW$ Elongated Third Ray

Post by Tekkie1 » Sun Feb 27, 2022 12:22 am

A big congratulations are in order.
Congrats! :D

vamsterdam
Posts: 1232
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:48 am

Re: OT - 2007 P GW$ Elongated Third Ray

Post by vamsterdam » Mon Mar 07, 2022 6:17 pm

I saw that one recently and was puzzled. How was the ray extended? This, the 2004d wisconsons, the 2004 “doubled ear, 196 dime with 5on cheek, 1962 proof half with mint mark in the bell are odd ones that deserve more attention.

RogerRock
Posts: 623
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:40 am

Re: OT - 2007 P GW$ Elongated Third Ray

Post by RogerRock » Mon Mar 07, 2022 9:52 pm

vamsterdam wrote:
Mon Mar 07, 2022 6:17 pm
I saw that one recently and was puzzled. How was the ray extended? This, the 2004d wisconsons, the 2004 “doubled ear, 196 dime with 5on cheek, 1962 proof half with mint mark in the bell are odd ones that deserve more attention.
Yeah Brian, another one of my favorites is the 1952 Washington Quarter Proof "SUPERBIRD" variety listed in the Professional Edition Red Book and CHERRYPICKERS" GUIDE. The S shaped mark on the center of the eagle's breast was called a possible engraving error (?).

The high leaf and low leaf 2004 D Wisconsin Quarter varieties are extremely popular ; also listed in the CHERRYPICKERS' GUIDE and The Official Red Book. It is believed by the authors of the CHERRYPICKERS' GUIDE that the additional lines on those Denver Wisconsin quarter dies were intentionally added by a mint employee with a round edge punch.

Much discussion has ensued regarding the "Elongated Third Ray" on the 2007 P George Washington $.
The leading variety experts have determined this major design change is in fact an official variety !!

The intrigue and fascination surrounding these rogue die design alterations is the essence which feeds the wonderful world of die varieties !
Stage 3 TERMINAL DIE STATE SILVER DOLLAR EXPLORER

User avatar
Longstrider
Posts: 881
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2018 9:12 pm
Location: Mojave High Desert

Re: OT - 2007 P GW$ Elongated Third Ray

Post by Longstrider » Tue Mar 08, 2022 4:00 pm

Any idea when the new Guide will be coming out? Congratulations!!

RogerB
Posts: 877
Joined: Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:30 pm

Re: OT - 2007 P GW$ Elongated Third Ray

Post by RogerB » Tue Mar 08, 2022 4:26 pm

Good job!
:)

RogerRock
Posts: 623
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:40 am

Re: OT - 2007 P GW$ Elongated Third Ray

Post by RogerRock » Tue Mar 08, 2022 5:01 pm

Longstrider wrote:
Tue Mar 08, 2022 4:00 pm
Any idea when the new Guide will be coming out? Congratulations!!
No idea. The next editions of The CHERRYPICKERS' GUIDE are already long overdue from Whitman.
Stage 3 TERMINAL DIE STATE SILVER DOLLAR EXPLORER

vamsterdam
Posts: 1232
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:48 am

Re: OT - 2007 P GW$ Elongated Third Ray

Post by vamsterdam » Tue Mar 08, 2022 5:39 pm

the cherrypickers guide is a mess. i turned in my last edits on it may 2019, and it is still not done. Larry Briggs and Bill fivaz are plagued with problems with "higher ups". both of them are super frustrated. I am not allowed to say much more than that. there are a number of other new coins being added. the main thing is getting all of the previous mistakes, bad pictures, equally egregious pricing info permanently fixed. it's like playing whackamole.
i don't buy the idea that the wisconson quarters are just random die gouges as some proposed, or that the 1952 super bird, 1962 half with d in the bell or the 1966 10c with 5 on cheek are just random metal shavings struck into the dies. there are quite a few coins struck from dies that were deliberately re engraved. some are bizarre. some were attempts to add back details that were polished out.

RogerRock
Posts: 623
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:40 am

Re: OT - 2007 P GW$ Elongated Third Ray

Post by RogerRock » Tue Mar 22, 2022 5:29 am

vamsterdam wrote:
Tue Mar 08, 2022 5:39 pm
the cherrypickers guide is a mess. i turned in my last edits on it may 2019, and it is still not done. Larry Briggs and Bill fivaz are plagued with problems with "higher ups". both of them are super frustrated. I am not allowed to say much more than that. there are a number of other new coins being added. the main thing is getting all of the previous mistakes, bad pictures, equally egregious pricing info permanently fixed. it's like playing whackamole.
i don't buy the idea that the wisconson quarters are just random die gouges as some proposed, or that the 1952 super bird, 1962 half with d in the bell or the 1966 10c with 5 on cheek are just random metal shavings struck into the dies. there are quite a few coins struck from dies that were deliberately re engraved. some are bizarre. some were attempts to add back details that were polished out.
Much APPRECIATION for your insight Brian !
Stage 3 TERMINAL DIE STATE SILVER DOLLAR EXPLORER

RogerB
Posts: 877
Joined: Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:30 pm

Re: OT - 2007 P GW$ Elongated Third Ray

Post by RogerB » Tue Mar 22, 2022 5:13 pm

vamsterdam wrote:
Tue Mar 08, 2022 5:39 pm
.... there are quite a few coins struck from dies that were deliberately re engraved. some are bizarre. some were attempts to add back details that were polished out.
Apologies for butting in, but this kind of statement really needs factual support in relation to the CPG.

User avatar
messydesk
Site Admin
Posts: 3506
Joined: Mon May 28, 2018 1:57 am

Re: OT - 2007 P GW$ Elongated Third Ray

Post by messydesk » Tue Mar 22, 2022 5:58 pm

RogerB wrote:
Tue Mar 22, 2022 5:13 pm
vamsterdam wrote:
Tue Mar 08, 2022 5:39 pm
.... there are quite a few coins struck from dies that were deliberately re engraved. some are bizarre. some were attempts to add back details that were polished out.
Apologies for butting in, but this kind of statement really needs factual support in relation to the CPG.
I believe "quite a few" includes the plethora of early 1950s proofs of almost all denominations that have what could only be called re-engraved details. For example, year after year of Jefferson nickels have re-engraved lower hair detail of varying skill levels. 1952 alone has 8 different ones. When presented with this, even without a log book that makes it true, I can think of no other conclusion than that there were efforts to re-engrave polished away details on proof dies. So much so, that the practice likely became part of the manufacturing and inspection process for these.
Welcome to the VAMWorld 2.0 discussion boards. R.I.P. old VAMWorld.

RogerB
Posts: 877
Joined: Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:30 pm

Re: OT - 2007 P GW$ Elongated Third Ray

Post by RogerB » Wed Mar 23, 2022 12:53 am

Yes, these are all legitimate die retouching by the Engravers and very well documented. (Also the unauthorized changes made to SF Morgan dollar reverse dies...) I was referring to an implication that the so-called "S" on Washington quarter's eagle and other such things ("bizarre") were intentionally produced.

tj52
Posts: 17
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2022 1:55 am

Re: OT - 2007 P GW$ Elongated Third Ray

Post by tj52 » Wed Mar 23, 2022 1:36 pm

For your viewing pleasure.
Attachments
thumbnail.jpg
thumbnail.jpg (97.66 KiB) Viewed 4010 times

User avatar
pup_picker
Posts: 235
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2019 3:31 pm

Re: OT - 2007 P GW$ Elongated Third Ray

Post by pup_picker » Sat Mar 26, 2022 9:08 pm

what is it that i am missing here.

i see only one in the pcgs pops. are they over at ngc? the one imaged in this thread is different (apperars to be) from the one on wexlers site. so there are 2. i don't see any one ebay (doesn't mean there aren't). all of this and they've been known since 2008, at least even if they've only been accepted as FS since recently.

further, are these tied to the edge lettering error coins or just the pos b lettering?

RogerRock
Posts: 623
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:40 am

Re: OT - 2007 P GW$ Elongated Third Ray

Post by RogerRock » Sat Mar 26, 2022 10:54 pm

pup_picker wrote:
Sat Mar 26, 2022 9:08 pm
what is it that i am missing here.

i see only one in the pcgs pops. are they over at ngc? the one imaged in this thread is different (apperars to be) from the one on wexlers site. so there are 2. i don't see any one ebay (doesn't mean there aren't). all of this and they've been known since 2008, at least even if they've only been accepted as FS since recently.

further, are these tied to the edge lettering error coins or just the pos b lettering?
Originally, my two specimen were the only ones graded and specified as a VARIETY "Elongated Third Ray" by a third party grading service (ICG) in 2008. This variety has languished with the CherryPicker's Guide author (Bill Fivaz) since that time. Other third party grading services have not received any submissions until very recently by one other highly motivated individual tj52 with examples sent to PCGS, NGC, and ICG. Wexler has listed this Elongated Third Ray on his website for many years since his attribution of both of my specimen. The FS number has not been published in the new CherryPickers' Guide yet and probably will not be included on the PCGS or NGC label until release of this new volume.

FYI - The 2007 GW$ Elongated Third Ray polarized error and variety experts (especially CONECA). My concerted efforts to vindicate this variety through national coin venues like Coin World, ERRORSCOPE, and Wexler's Coins and Die Varieties revealed the POLITICS involved. Personal contributions to the numismatic archives about significant design changes are intended to promote the hobby.

The edge lettering has been verified in both Position A and Position B on the 2007 GW$ Elongated Third Ray Variety. Both of my specimen (ICG MS63 and ICG MS64) exhibit Position A Edge Lettering. tj52 currently has graded specimen with Position A and Position B.

The photos in this post are original comparison by Bill Fivaz from my specimen.
The photos on Wexlers' Coins and Die Varieties are his (John Wexler) own photos from my specimen.
Stage 3 TERMINAL DIE STATE SILVER DOLLAR EXPLORER

vamsterdam
Posts: 1232
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:48 am

Re: OT - 2007 P GW$ Elongated Third Ray

Post by vamsterdam » Wed Apr 20, 2022 11:27 pm

So, @RogerB , how would you explain the elongated ray , if not a deliberate alteration of a die? Much like the wisconson quarter extra leaf high and low? Just happened to be on wisconson quarters in the shape and position of leaves. Same gor the 1962 50c fs-901 d in bell? Very lightly punched d, possibly from a dropped mm punch, or perhaps deliberately done.

RogerB
Posts: 877
Joined: Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:30 pm

Re: OT - 2007 P GW$ Elongated Third Ray

Post by RogerB » Thu Apr 21, 2022 4:25 pm

The long ray, as pictured, seems to be an intentional addition. Higher quality photos should reveal engraving marks. To me, the proportions of the ray are confusing - as if a short ray was lengthened, rather than the long ray being a single unit. Foreshortening of the view makes it clear that a long ray in this portion is geometrically incorrect. However, the long ray is present and so far is lacking an explanation - that should not prevent its pubic recognition.

RogerRock
Posts: 623
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:40 am

Re: OT - 2007 P GW$ Elongated Third Ray

Post by RogerRock » Thu May 12, 2022 3:07 pm

NGC has listed the 2007 P GW $ Elongated Third Ray Variety as 2007 P Washington Elongated Ray VP-001 $1 MS. NGC Attribution Elongated Ray VP-001

NGC Diagnostics
The third ray from the bottom was extended to Liberty's arm through hand engraving of the die, perhaps to restore it after some damage or overpolishing.

I would disagree with this NGC diagnostic ! Why would the mint extend this ray in the wrong linear and proportional symmetry when there (actually) is no damage or die polishing visible on the die ???
Furthermore, close observation does not reveal any engraving marks associated with the elongation.
The top of the extension is absolutely linear while the bottom of the extension is irregular and out of proportion with incorrect tapering.

In my opinion, someone at the mint surreptitiously extended the third ray on an undamaged die with a modified chisel pointed punch.
Last edited by RogerRock on Mon Oct 10, 2022 5:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Stage 3 TERMINAL DIE STATE SILVER DOLLAR EXPLORER

tj52
Posts: 17
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2022 1:55 am

Re: OT - 2007 P GW$ Elongated Third Ray

Post by tj52 » Thu May 12, 2022 4:06 pm

Here's a link to the NGC page Roger is referring to.

https://www.ngccoin.com/variety-plus/un ... 14/?page=1

tj52
Posts: 17
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2022 1:55 am

Re: OT - 2007 P GW$ Elongated Third Ray

Post by tj52 » Tue Jun 21, 2022 9:51 pm

Any updates?

Post Reply