80/79 P Maybe?

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SilverToken
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80/79 P Maybe?

Post by SilverToken » Thu Feb 24, 2022 12:48 pm

Picked this 1880P up. The glint under 2nd 8 drew me in. It appears as a grind-polish to remove the 7's bottom. The 0 seems to have a raised edge of the 9 inside the 0 near bottom. Unfortunately, the top of the 0 has a damage gouge. First star to the right is doubled.

Haven't found the VAM yet, so I am looking for answers. Please Take a look, and be kind.
Attachments
80 over 9.jpeg
80 over 9.jpeg (186.29 KiB) Viewed 705 times
9 tail.jpeg
9 tail.jpeg (174.07 KiB) Viewed 705 times
1880 8 over 7.jpeg
1880 8 over 7.jpeg (207.45 KiB) Viewed 705 times
80 over 9 or wha.jpg
80 over 9 or wha.jpg (175.66 KiB) Viewed 705 times
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vampicker
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Re: 80/79 P Maybe?

Post by vampicker » Thu Feb 24, 2022 12:59 pm

That funky ridge on the lower left of the 0 reminds me of VAM 32
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messydesk
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Re: 80/79 P Maybe?

Post by messydesk » Thu Feb 24, 2022 2:38 pm

vampicker wrote:
Thu Feb 24, 2022 12:59 pm
That funky ridge on the lower left of the 0 reminds me of VAM 32
And the ridge at the lower inside of the 0 reminds me to get a new poking stick.
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vampicker
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Re: 80/79 P Maybe?

Post by vampicker » Thu Feb 24, 2022 3:40 pm

I'm probably due for a new one as well
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RogerB
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Re: 80/79 P Maybe?

Post by RogerB » Thu Feb 24, 2022 4:53 pm

A large proportion of 1879 dies went unused, so many - possibly most - were filled, smoothed, and repunched with "1880." The repair filling held better in some dies than in others as evidenced by the wide variety of "80/79" pieces, including some showing gradual crumbling of the fill. The nub at the base of "8" and other details show this to be one of the overdated dies.

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vampicker
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Re: 80/79 P Maybe?

Post by vampicker » Thu Feb 24, 2022 5:28 pm

It's a hub thing. On some level all 80 dated Morgans are overdates. There's a clear difference in relief between the first two digits and the second two.
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vampicker
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Re: 80/79 P Maybe?

Post by vampicker » Thu Feb 24, 2022 8:05 pm

Now to be fair with what Roger theorized earlier, this sort of thing absolutely happened with other(particularly earlier) series, and is by far the most likely cause of the 87/6 overdates.
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RogerB
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Re: 80/79 P Maybe?

Post by RogerB » Thu Feb 24, 2022 10:18 pm

vampicker wrote:
Thu Feb 24, 2022 5:28 pm
It's a hub thing. On some level all 80 dated Morgans are overdates. There's a clear difference in relief between the first two digits and the second two.
If a master die (not a hub) was repaired -- possibly 1880 was not ready due to W Barber's death and the delay in appointing a new Engraver -- then all the visible undertypes will be the same location. If individual working dies were repaired, then the relative position of under- and over-type will vary. Of course, there is the possibility of a combination.

What have VAM collectors observed? Has that been published? Can the information be used to interest new variety collectors?

[PS: Grinding numerals off a hub was not feasible -- when complete, it would have to be pressed into die steel to make a new "18xx" date, then the last two digits punched. Hence "79" would not appear on any coin except if a master die or working die were repaired.]

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SilverToken
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Re: 80/79 P Maybe?

Post by SilverToken » Fri Feb 25, 2022 1:31 pm

I really appreciate the insight, and the history of 1880. Agree whole-heartedly about the relief difference between 18 and 80. But this new information does lead to new questions.

If the VAM system boil down to die differences, does it not consider the Hub? Cracks, scribbles, gouges, fingers are all included, even specified (my previous post of 96 vam 4 missing gouge)

I will continue through the VAM listings, not a 32, and hopefully land. It is a fun $35 buy.
When it's no longer fun, I think I'm done!

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