HELP FINDING MORE NEW VAMERS

[HawkeEye]

I stumbled across something that is paying tiny dividends, but I think could pay more for us,

I use Reddit for some technical discussions about various computing devices and I usually find there is someone, somewhere, who has had a similar challenge that helps. One day out of boredom I checked to see if there was a Morgans subreddit and sure enough there was one. But the subreddit was almost dormant and had not had a posting in years. So I worked with the administrator and got him to add me so I could work on it.

I gussied it up a little with new graphics and then started searching for posts about Morgans on the Coins subreddit. In about a month a fresh 110 or so people started posting and there are now 196 members.

This is an interesting exercise because the skill set is all over the board. There are some VAMers who post and they are easily identified because of the level of detail in the responses. But there is everything from people buying their first Morgan to people who are sophisticated in their collecting. There are people buying cleaned or damaged coins we would not touch, but that is how we all learned.

I have two personal goals, and so far I am doing pretty good.
1. I never say anything negative no matter how bad the post or naive the question.
2. When appropriate nudge them to VAMworld to look for answers and give them links to the specific coin being discussed.

I am hoping that a person who goes to VAMworld a dozen times to find answers has the light bulb go on and they join us there. In time this might be just the type source we need to hook younger collectors on Morgans and VAMing.

AND, I NEED SOME MORE PEOPLE FROM HERE TO JOIN. IT COSTS NOTHING BUT A LITTLE TIME, AND MIGHT JUST PUSH VAMING FORWARD A LITTLE WITH A YOUNGER GENERATION.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Morgans/new/

[HawkeEye]

Forgot

I pass out a lot of awards for reasonable or good posts which with the younger crowd seems to matter. It costs me a little, but a very little.

[blh74]

That has some nice pics. Knowledgeable people there. Thanks HawkeEye.

[Raybob15239]

Do we have to download the reddit app?

[alefzero]

There have been very casual attempts to get VAMs on Facebook too. That is a very rich platform to mine for VAM collectors, existent and potential future ones. I forget what we have. Maybe a page for the SSDC and/or one for VAMworld. Certainly both should be there and be active. If we keep direct trading from such groups, there is little hassle from the front office there. Links to here will drive traffic and potential more members of the SSDC and Registry participants.

I am trying to get folks in [to the Registry] from other dollar series and Carr collectors. I know Ash was working with the NSDR. Their support is quite welcome, but their participation would be even better. It is crazy how many have no idea it exists and assume I am talking about the PCGS Registry. Talking up the price guide and its exclusivity might help. Even just being aware of its existence, as we know, supports some confidence in collecting VAMs. It does need to reach completion though, getting the Peace covered and all those ones that might not interest 90%+ of even hardcore collectors here. (Most of those are valued common, but there are some not to discount. I saw the 1921 VAM-41A in the guide priced the same as VAM-41B. It shouldn't, but we also know that almost all of the ones attributed in the past are really 41B.)

You are absolutely right in that exposure is what we do need. We have lots of resources and experts.

[JASONKFLO]

There have been very casual attempts to get VAMs on Facebook too. That is a very rich platform to mine for VAM collectors, existent and potential future ones. I forget what we have. Maybe a page for the SSDC and/or one for VAMworld. Certainly both should be there and be active. If we keep direct trading from such groups, there is little hassle from the front office there. Links to here will drive traffic and potential more members of the SSDC and Registry participants.

I am trying to get folks in [to the Registry] from other dollar series and Carr collectors. I know Ash was working with the NSDR. Their support is quite welcome, but their participation would be even better. It is crazy how many have no idea it exists and assume I am talking about the PCGS Registry. Talking up the price guide and its exclusivity might help. Even just being aware of its existence, as we know, supports some confidence in collecting VAMs. It does need to reach completion though, getting the Peace covered and all those ones that might not interest 90%+ of even hardcore collectors here. (Most of those are valued common, but there are some not to discount. I saw the 1921 VAM-41A in the guide priced the same as VAM-41B. It shouldn't, but we also know that almost all of the ones attributed in the past are really 41B.)

You are absolutely right in that exposure is what we do need. We have lots of resources and experts.

I agree , A vam Facebook page would be a good free platform.

[HawkeEye]

I also think it is important that one or two people take interest in each platform to keep it going. Reddit fits me because I am there researching other topics and spending time on the Morgans subreddit is quick. I am there most of the time to encourage only.

[AlexP]

I just stumbled upon that subreddit the other day! I had a VAM question I am posting here, I'll post it over there too to help out the sub!

[Tennessee]

HawkeEye,
When I can, I bring up Vamworld to a group that I belong to. It's called Coin Opp. I don't know if they have a link to Vamworld but I can check. I haven't seen one, but I haven't looked eather. I was a member of Vamworld first. There are several thousand members. They also have an hispanic part to Coin Opp. There are people from around the world that belongs to it. I don't know who to talk to about getting a link. I guess one of the administrators. I thinking that one of them has something to do with Coins Magazine if my old mind serves me correctly. What do you and the other gentlemen think? I hope this helps. Thanks...Ron

[...kenny]

I'm a member of Silver dollar VAM collectors on FB...

I have also found the Coin Discord, starting to dip the toes in!

[JASONKFLO]

I'm a member of Silver dollar VAM collectors on FB...

I have also found the Coin Discord, starting to dip the toes in!

oh i will look for the facebook page

[HawkeEye]

I think we are discovering that lots of us are trying to do our part, we just need to keep up the work.

there are a lot of forums out there and we need to explore them.

[vamsterdam]

did not know there was a vam silver dollars page on facebook.

[HawkeEye]

No, I stay away from any other social media.

[RogerB]

If you want to attract new members and then retain them, you will have to simplify.

Allow me to put it directly -- there is too much "stuff" to catch the interest of new collectors. They will not wade through the chest-deep mire of multiple sub- sub- super-sub varieties and suffixes to VAM numbers. Page after page of nidly-pickin' "varieties" turns people away....these are an acquired taste after being captured by the fundamentals.

Maybe the "Under New Management" folks will pay attention, but you will have to get rid of idiosyncratic "Super Duper 99" list stuff, at least for the beginners. Focus on clarity for the best, most easily identified and accurately explained 25 varieties. All have to be visible and teachable without magnification. Develop a clear newbie education path from those best 25 to how other, less evident varieties can occur from the same causes....That is: cause A produces effects 1, 2, 3. Lastly, find a way to incorporate the most common varieties -- clashed reverse dies. Those are the first Morgan variety any collector sees and is curious about, and they are treated like vermin, when they are actually attractants for new hobbyists.

It's up to you!

OK -- I've worn out my welcome.

[messydesk]

If you want to attract new members and then retain them, you will have to simplify.
...
Maybe the "Under New Management" folks will pay attention, but you will have to get rid of idiosyncratic "Super Duper 99" list stuff, at least for the beginners. Focus on clarity for the best, most easily identified and accurately explained 25 varieties...

It is actually the "Top 100" list that brought VAM collecting back from the wilderness, where there were only a small handful of people involved. It was quite successful, and attracted a lot of beginners. Grading services have all validated it as being mainstream.

To your point, however, I agree that there's a lot of "noise" in the VAM catalog, and I'll agree that the existence of many lists has introduced noise into the lists. The introduction you seek already exists, but is not well known or widely distributed. Leroy's book "The Wonders of Morgan Dollars" prioritizes the types of varieties, explains how they came to be, and shows a few "best in class" examples of each. It's essentially a guide to collecting a variety "type set" of Morgan dollars. One of the goals of the New Management is to improve it into something that looks more like a book than a comb-bound Xeroxed monograph and make it a mainstream guide to VAM collecting.

[RogerB]

A complete revision of basic material is, in my opinion, necessary. "The Wonders of Morgan Dollars" is archaic, incorrect in places, and illogical in others -- all of which discourage new collectors from test-driving the hobby. That replacement will become the base and include the naked-eye varieties. If the 100 best list works, ok, but cut it down by half or 3/4ths....New collectors want reinforcement, and much of that comes from being able to find those core varieties - and identify how they occurred - from a fixed reference book. All of the others can be part of supplemental that is still at a high level of observability--- i.e., no magnification.

Consider preparing a clear redefinition of a variety and how it relates to die pairs.

Finally, do not be afraid to change. For example all position measurements must be based on fixed reference lines within the central design elements on obverse and reverse. That way all position and rotation measurements become consistent and repeatable - a great boon to identifying varieties.

OK...back to my hibernation den.

[vampicker]

@RogerB It's clear you have an interest in the series, but I've wondered this for a while and I have to ask - do you actually collect VAMs?

[JASONKFLO]

I will say from my stand point . I love looking for vams . It’s a long learning curve though. Personally I love clasher coins. They are often easy to see even in bad pics . Maybe A list of common vams with easy pick up points from average photos would be a nice start . For me it’s exciting to see a raw or unattributed coin with a neck clash. Finding one of my first was a raw Au 1881 o vam 50a . Common coin but hooked me.

[RogerB]

@RogerB It's clear you have an interest in the series, but I've wondered this for a while and I have to ask - do you actually collect VAMs?

I've tried collecting Morgans by interesting die varieties several times - and failed to maintain interest on each occasion. The reasons are largely those referred to above, and also mentioned to me by many others who have tried.

Did you ever complete a crossword puzzle where all the words were 7 letters? How about playing Scrabble without the vowel "E" and missing consonants "B, K, M, and S" ?

My point is that the present condition is too complicated and confused to retain new collectors. There is no logical, clear and instructive pathway -- things that are necessary for attracting and keeping collectors in a series with such an extensive date length and number of dies used.

My advice, as a researcher, writer, advisor, and listener to collectors is work together:

1. A basic guidebook: What, How, Why the coins were made and the same for how varieties were created. Correct process description errors - there are only a few.
2. Drop the pretense of "VanAllen-Mallis" varieties, and go to "die varieties." Call them "VAM" for consistency but turn the process around to become "cause and effect" rather than the present "observe and guess-the-cause."
3. Keep the date/mint approach but group by causes. This gives new people a chance to learn how certain kinds of varieties were produced and then understand their evolution into finer detail.
4. Consolidate minute differences into nothing more than early, middle and late die states (being sure to define and illustrate these).
5. Sequence from easy-to-see toward more challenging varieties, and offer suggestions for additional, but more difficult, varieties as follow-up to the easy ones.

As for promoting things once you have an attractive model -- Plan and produce several short but engaging videos: what to look for, how to find, how to cherry-pick. Consider a causal theme for each video rather than merely showing pretty pictures. (I'll certainly give permission to use anything from my books and articles - just ask.)

Last -- always have a point-of-contact in videos and other publications. It's incredibly frustrating for a newbie to have a question and not know where to find a truthful answer.

Not sure if any of this answers your question, vampicker. If not, ask again and I'll try to do better.