1889-P Very Far Date, second 8 doubled, open high 9, strongly clashed obverse die, No clash reverse. Help Please

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Mike7E
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1889-P Very Far Date, second 8 doubled, open high 9, strongly clashed obverse die, No clash reverse. Help Please

Post by Mike7E » Mon Jan 10, 2022 6:56 pm

This coin has a very sharp clash mark at the neck jaw juncture that almost looks like a die crack. This area also shows signs of over-polishing and a slight curved die displacement from jaw to neck. With this strong a clash the i and n should be in the field under the clash but were probably polished away. There are remnants of clashes under the lower lip and at the Cap Vee. Looking at every VAM listed on the VAMWorld 2.0 page there are a couple with a clash location close but those are not very far date obverses. The earlier stage of this coin should have had letter transfers so perhaps this clash was so bad they pulled the die almost immediately? This coin shows that the die was heavily polished as seen with an island like blob of hair near the designer’s initial. The reverse does not have a clash mark (there are several fine lines in the area but they look like die polishing and the longest goes onto the wing). There is minor doubling, some of which appears to be strike doubling. The w in we has strike and surface doubling or is that damage as the two marks look nearly identical? The wreath and wing gap have polishing lines.
Obverse
First 8 Surface doubling or damage? Rough area at top from partially filled die or planchet defect? Second 8 doubled outside lower left of upper loop, Open high 9. Strong clash mark at neck-line jaw juncture with i transfer just visible or polished out? Heavy die polishing, hair at designer’s initial almost an island, lines through LIBERTY. No doubling in ear.
Reverse
No clash on Reverse
Doubled edge midway up right wing, looks like strike doubling
w in we surface doubling or damage.
Left star strike and other doubling
UNI and wreath doubled towards rim, strike doubling.
Polishing lines wreath and wing gap.
M7E a 1889-P Very Far Date.jpg
M7E a 1889-P Very Far Date.jpg (257.13 KiB) Viewed 1060 times
Very far date, high open 9, overpolished hair
M7E b 1889-P Very Far Date first 8.jpg
M7E b 1889-P Very Far Date first 8.jpg (99.14 KiB) Viewed 1060 times
First 8 surface doubling or damage? Rough area from partially filled die after polishing or damage?
M7E c 1889-P Very Far Date Second 8.jpg
M7E c 1889-P Very Far Date Second 8.jpg (99.58 KiB) Viewed 1060 times
Doubled second 8, blob
M7E d 1889-P Very Far Date Clash.jpg
M7E d 1889-P Very Far Date Clash.jpg (142.8 KiB) Viewed 1060 times
Field displacement, overpolished clash area
M7E e 1889-P Very Far Date Neck Line.jpg
M7E e 1889-P Very Far Date Neck Line.jpg (274.03 KiB) Viewed 1060 times

Mike7E
Posts: 101
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:01 am

Re: 1889-P Very Far Date, second 8 doubled, open high 9, strongly clashed obverse die, No clash reverse. Help Please

Post by Mike7E » Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:01 pm

M7E f 1889-P Very Far Date LIBERTY.jpg
M7E f 1889-P Very Far Date LIBERTY.jpg (264.85 KiB) Viewed 1058 times
Polishing lines 'under' LIBERTY
M7E g 1889-P Very Far Date Rev No Clash.jpg
M7E g 1889-P Very Far Date Rev No Clash.jpg (153.17 KiB) Viewed 1058 times
Several fine lines in the area but they look like die polishing or scratches
M7E h 1889-P Very Far Date Wing.jpg
M7E h 1889-P Very Far Date Wing.jpg (252.61 KiB) Viewed 1058 times
Strike doubling edge of wing
M7E i 1889-P Very Far Date w.jpg
M7E i 1889-P Very Far Date w.jpg (127.12 KiB) Viewed 1058 times
Strike and surface doubling (or nearly identical hits?)
M7E j 1889-P Very Far Date Left Star.jpg
M7E j 1889-P Very Far Date Left Star.jpg (73.43 KiB) Viewed 1058 times

Mike7E
Posts: 101
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:01 am

Re: 1889-P Very Far Date, second 8 doubled, open high 9, strongly clashed obverse die, No clash reverse. Help Please

Post by Mike7E » Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:10 pm

M7E 1889-P Very Far Date UN. jpg.jpg
M7E 1889-P Very Far Date UN. jpg.jpg (132.05 KiB) Viewed 1058 times
Strike doubling UNI & leaves
M7E k 1889-P Very Far Date Wreath.jpg
M7E k 1889-P Very Far Date Wreath.jpg (81.59 KiB) Viewed 1058 times
Polishing lines wreath
M7E l 1889-P Very Far Date Wing Gap.jpg
M7E l 1889-P Very Far Date Wing Gap.jpg (77.41 KiB) Viewed 1058 times
Polishing lines wing gap
M7E m 1889-P Very Far Date Obv.JPG
M7E m 1889-P Very Far Date Obv.JPG (206.56 KiB) Viewed 1058 times
M7E n 1889-P Very Far Date Rev.JPG
M7E n 1889-P Very Far Date Rev.JPG (217.67 KiB) Viewed 1058 times

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PacificWR
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Re: 1889-P Very Far Date, second 8 doubled, open high 9, strongly clashed obverse die, No clash reverse. Help Please

Post by PacificWR » Tue Jan 11, 2022 4:38 am

Can you take a close-up of the 9 in the date? Look at 9 in the date closely and see if you notice something just a little bit different. Finding an un-clashed Reverse in the 1889-P series is not uncommon. I think it says something about the 1889-P Reverse dies. Here are a few examples of un-clashed reverse VAMs for the series, 1889-P VAM-3, VAM-23A, VAM-23B, VAM-30, VAM-33 and VAM-38 (there are more).

Mike7E
Posts: 101
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:01 am

Re: 1889-P Very Far Date, second 8 doubled, open high 9, strongly clashed obverse die, No clash reverse. Help Please

Post by Mike7E » Tue Jan 11, 2022 10:51 pm

Thanks for the feedback. The reason I was thinking it was unusual is that the VAM-23A page states “Reverse C3a - No die clash marks on reverse die very unusual, especially for such strong die clash marks on obverse.” It looks like a very strong clash that was partially polished away. I did recheck the ones you noted and none match. I've looked at every VAM on the page several times and can't find this one.
Here is the 9 as requested and a better shot of the wing gap.
M7E 1889-P Very Far Date 9ajpg.jpg
M7E 1889-P Very Far Date 9ajpg.jpg (107.87 KiB) Viewed 984 times
Open 9 slight doubling lower side of upper loop, crack in lower loop. Lower right probably damage. Look at complete date picture and you can see two hit marks in denticles that line up with the bottom of the 9.
M7E l 1889-P Very Far Date Wing Gapa.jpg
M7E l 1889-P Very Far Date Wing Gapa.jpg (111.95 KiB) Viewed 984 times

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PacificWR
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Re: 1889-P Very Far Date, second 8 doubled, open high 9, strongly clashed obverse die, No clash reverse. Help Please

Post by PacificWR » Wed Jan 12, 2022 4:41 am

Thanks for the close-up photos. The die crack in the 9 in the date is not really a die crack, it is a faulty logo punch (9) and can be found on numerous 1889-P VAMs. VAM-9, VAM-23A, VAM-23B, VAM-38 (open 9), VAM-3, VAM-7, VAM-7A, VAM-7B1, VAM-7B2 and the 1889-O VAM-13B (crumbled stars) to name a few. It is a key die marker. Can you check on the obverse for the VAM-9 & VAM-38 small die chip at right outside of the ear (die marker) and on the reverse can you check for polishing lines in the eagle's left and right wing as well as the upper tail feathers?

Mike7E
Posts: 101
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:01 am

Re: 1889-P Very Far Date, second 8 doubled, open high 9, strongly clashed obverse die, No clash reverse. Help Please

Post by Mike7E » Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:35 pm

Thanks for hidden nugget that the 9 punch had the mark. Similar to a 3 punch in 1883. I checked and no chip behind the ear and no polishing lines in cotton bolls so not VAM-9 or VAM-38, which appear to be the same with the latter version having die breaks at the date. Overpolishing can be seen in the wispy hair ends in ear pic of my coin. Interesting, similar die scratch to VAM-38 near the curl and the wreath polishing lines are also similar but don’t match. Pics of eagle also but hard to tell what is a scratch on the coin versus the die. Rechecked the other ones that you mentioned and not them either.
M7E 1889-P Very Far Date Ear.jpg
M7E 1889-P Very Far Date Ear.jpg (134.67 KiB) Viewed 954 times
M7E 1889-P Very Far Date Scratch near Curl2.jpg
M7E 1889-P Very Far Date Scratch near Curl2.jpg (136.76 KiB) Viewed 954 times
M7E 1889-P  left wing.jpg
M7E 1889-P left wing.jpg (131.11 KiB) Viewed 954 times
M7E 1889-P Very Far Date Right Wing.jpg
M7E 1889-P Very Far Date Right Wing.jpg (129.22 KiB) Viewed 954 times
M7E 1889-P Very Far Date Eye2.jpg
M7E 1889-P Very Far Date Eye2.jpg (128.79 KiB) Viewed 954 times
Damage above eye?

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PacificWR
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Re: 1889-P Very Far Date, second 8 doubled, open high 9, strongly clashed obverse die, No clash reverse. Help Please

Post by PacificWR » Sat Jan 15, 2022 2:46 am

The VAM-9 and VAM-38 are probably dup listings. Thanks for the additional photos. Think you may have an MDS. Can you take some shots of the UTF's and bow?

Mike7E
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Re: 1889-P Very Far Date, second 8 doubled, open high 9, strongly clashed obverse die, No clash reverse. Help Please

Post by Mike7E » Sat Jan 15, 2022 5:15 pm

Thanks for your continued assistance.
Here are pics of UTF and Wreath Bow
M7E 1889-P Very Far Date UTF.jpg
M7E 1889-P Very Far Date UTF.jpg (137.82 KiB) Viewed 896 times
M7E 1889-P Very Far Date Bow.jpg
M7E 1889-P Very Far Date Bow.jpg (132.6 KiB) Viewed 896 times

Mike7E
Posts: 101
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Re: 1889-P Very Far Date, second 8 doubled, open high 9, strongly clashed obverse die, No clash reverse. Help Please

Post by Mike7E » Sat Jan 15, 2022 6:00 pm

This coin has many of the markers of VAM-38 but is missing a few. The Full Coin picture on the page is listed as an EDS but already has the breaks at the date, which are not on this coin. The 'diagnostic' marks at the Cotton bolls are not there either but could have been polished away. Would the breaks at the date have been polished off too?
M7E 1889-P Very Far Date Bolls.jpg
M7E 1889-P Very Far Date Bolls.jpg (139.21 KiB) Viewed 892 times

Mike7E
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Re: 1889-P Very Far Date, second 8 doubled, open high 9, strongly clashed obverse die, No clash reverse. Help Please

Post by Mike7E » Sat Jan 15, 2022 8:24 pm

Ah I see the light and you were correct sir VAM-38. However I propose LDS as I cranked up the scope and found residual die cracks at the date. They were almost polished off of this die stage. The single large clash still looks a little off as the VAM-38 Full Coin Picture has two, but one got polished off.
Thanks for your help!
M7E 1889-P Very Far Date Residual diecrack 88.jpg
M7E 1889-P Very Far Date Residual diecrack 88.jpg (129.76 KiB) Viewed 887 times
M7E 1889-P Very Far Date Residual diecrack 89.jpg
M7E 1889-P Very Far Date Residual diecrack 89.jpg (134.64 KiB) Viewed 887 times

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PacificWR
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Re: 1889-P Very Far Date, second 8 doubled, open high 9, strongly clashed obverse die, No clash reverse. Help Please

Post by PacificWR » Sat Jan 15, 2022 9:23 pm

Think you nailed it. You are welcome.

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