Struck Thru Grease?

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Brabjohn
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Struck Thru Grease?

Post by Brabjohn » Tue Dec 28, 2021 8:56 pm

Thoughts on whether this would qualify at TPG for mint error variety for struck thru grease? All thoughts and comments welcome.
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Mike7E
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Re: Struck Thru Grease?

Post by Mike7E » Tue Dec 28, 2021 9:31 pm

So you mean the black smutz on her cheek? Most feature look sharp enough.

Brabjohn
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Re: Struck Thru Grease?

Post by Brabjohn » Tue Dec 28, 2021 9:48 pm

Yes, not my lane per se but looks like grease struck into her cheek.

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HawkeEye
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Re: Struck Thru Grease?

Post by HawkeEye » Tue Dec 28, 2021 10:03 pm

Most of the struck through grease "stuff" I have seen stays around as a white residue.

Pull this one up on PCGS and check the denticles and dates. It is covered with the stuff. It almost looks like soap residue.

https://www.pcgs.com/cert/81450121
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RogerB
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Re: Struck Thru Grease?

Post by RogerB » Wed Dec 29, 2021 8:13 pm

Not grease --- maybe "geese" like at the golf course where they get "struck through" a lot. ;)
Last edited by RogerB on Thu Dec 30, 2021 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

iwillbenice
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Re: Struck Thru Grease?

Post by iwillbenice » Wed Dec 29, 2021 10:11 pm

Green carbon spot.

Mike7E
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Re: Struck Thru Grease?

Post by Mike7E » Thu Dec 30, 2021 12:06 am

When I see struck thru grease this cent comes to mind. 2.53 g normal weight
Reverse a little fuzzy and weak outer lettering but Lincoln Memorial statue in center well struck.
Obverse strongest part of strike is center of Lincoln bust. Date area smooth and all lettering weak.
Cent Reverse.jpg
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Cent struck thru grease  Obverse.jpg
Cent struck thru grease Obverse.jpg (76.94 KiB) Viewed 1715 times

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Kurt28
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Re: Struck Thru Grease?

Post by Kurt28 » Thu Dec 30, 2021 10:02 am

Not everyone will recall, but Rob broached this subject back in Version 1.0

I would wonder if the dark streak isn't oxidation or a counting mark.
To my thinking, the grease on a die leaves a spot on the coin.
As visible here in the neck/wing gap.

7.JPG
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And with successive strikes, some of the grease is transferred to the coin and removed from the die.

prog sized.jpg
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There are from the 1904-O VAM-30B

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HawkeEye
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Re: Struck Thru Grease?

Post by HawkeEye » Fri Dec 31, 2021 2:06 am

Speaking of "Struck Through Grease" as we were.

Several years back we hit on a large batch of VAM 28.3 that are all PL or DMPL coins. Every coin has some features on the reverse that are consistent and look like highlights. I had always assumed that this was remnants of grease, but is it? Just below and to the left of the right wing there is a white shadow wing edge, and then around the eagle's head there is this same halo look.

You can look at any of them and it is always there, so it is on the die. http://www.1881o.com/28.html

Is this the results of a group of coins in an early run being struck through grease? It lasted coin after coin.

81ov28_3-9508-rev-2200.jpg
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messydesk
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Re: Struck Thru Grease?

Post by messydesk » Fri Dec 31, 2021 2:29 am

That bit between the wing and olive leaves on the 81-O VAM 28.3 is in the die. It got etched with something and wasn't completely polished. VAM 54 is also like that, but much stronger.
Welcome to the VAMWorld 2.0 discussion boards. R.I.P. old VAMWorld.

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Kurt28
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Re: Struck Thru Grease?

Post by Kurt28 » Fri Dec 31, 2021 2:34 am

Beautiful coin and great photo.
For research purposes, it would be hard to find a better example.

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HawkeEye
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Re: Struck Thru Grease?

Post by HawkeEye » Fri Dec 31, 2021 3:55 pm

Your right and here is an example of the VAM 54. But the question remains, what is it?
81ov54-5541-rev-2200.jpg
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Kurt28
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Re: Struck Thru Grease?

Post by Kurt28 » Sat Jan 29, 2022 5:21 pm

Hawkeye, my first guess is that you have coins showing micro variations in the planchet, enhanced by the washing process.
Certainly, I could be wrong and welcome correction.
But this coin demonstrates my understanding of a strike through.
Slab.jpg
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Close up of "sawdust" strike through.
Strike thru.jpg
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And as a bonus, a "wire" strike through.
Wire strike thru.jpg
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Geseas
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Re: Struck Thru Grease?

Post by Geseas » Sun Jan 30, 2022 8:34 pm

Brabjohn wrote:
Tue Dec 28, 2021 8:56 pm
Thoughts on whether this would qualify at TPG for mint error variety for struck thru grease? All thoughts and comments welcome.

Your post has gone in a lot of directions that I have been enjoying looking into.

I just wanted to mention that I have found interesting details on a coin hidden under that Smutz. (making the gunk a kind of a PUP you might say.)
I have changed my mind regarding the poking of foreign material on a coin with a toothpick. I used to think it was a bad idea, but there is so much stuff that can get stuck on a coin and if it sits there long enough it can look like part of the coin.

@Kurt28
I would sure like to learn more regarding that "Successive Strikes through Grease" you pictured above.
Any more direction on that is sure interesting. Thanks

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Kurt28
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Re: Struck Thru Grease?

Post by Kurt28 » Mon Jan 31, 2022 4:14 am

Geseas, The explanation is simple.
I stumbled across VAMworld a bit over a decade ago.
Exceedingly smart, honorable and world class Numismatists helped me get a strart.
And as a crazy old man something just fit.
For the first time in my life I wanted to focus on one thing and make a difference. Otherwise I'm eclectic in my collections.

With the help of some newfound friends, I thought I might collect the 1904-O Morgans.
Though 99% + of the ground had been covered by my Mentors, I thought it was a topic that could teach me a lot. And it has. That series has a lot to offer.

Rob/Squirrel opened a thread on strike throughs back in the old VAMworld Version 1 and it sparked my interest. Rob spoke of a roll of coins that when opened showed the progression of grease on the die being dissipated with successive strikes.
As I had a couple of examples, I was interested and over the years acquired a few more.
There is no other reasonable explanation why anyone would assemble a collection of specific VAMs that have no market interest. But if I find another one that may fit my study collection, I'll bid on it.

There is grease on the die.
Every strike transfers some grease to the coin where it will be washed off.
Every strike has less grease on the die, and less transferred to the coin.

This is my understanding, but I could be wrong.
Thank you for your interest.

Geseas
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Re: Struck Thru Grease?

Post by Geseas » Mon Jan 31, 2022 5:22 pm

I am gaining a whole new perspective on grease. :)

It seems to be kind of a shooting star through a die-paring; it's suddenly there and then just as quickly dissipates. Not at all like a die crack to a cud progression.

They all are within the same Vam number; of course.

Kurt28. Thank you for your contributions.

I would bet all those LFCP's in their progression order is quite striking!

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HawkeEye
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Re: Struck Thru Grease?

Post by HawkeEye » Fri Feb 04, 2022 3:25 am

Kurt28 I got lost on another issue and just got back.

The coin with the swirl pattern above the eagle is one of several we found with exactly the same pattern, all the same VAM. At the time we thought struck through grease because it would be impossible for multiple planchets to have exactly the same pattern and placement.

I was so new to VAMing that I did not have a clue, but if it was grease and it created a pattern on the die that was repeated, then maybe. It could also be one of those mysteries that we speculate about and never solve.

Check these images
http://www.1881o.com/32295411_62dm_54.html
http://www.1881o.com/12905541_62dm_54.html
http://www.1881o.com/10489644_62dm_54.html
http://www.1881o.com/82113878_61dm_54.html
http://www.1881o.com/14675968_61dm_54.html
http://www.1881o.com/14675967_61dm_54.html

All with the same identical pattern on the reverse, all DMPL, all VAM 54

Then I have a whole series of VAM 28.3 coins, all DMPL and all with similar white markings around the eagle (not these on the VAM 54 but another recognizable pattern)
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Kurt28
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Re: Struck Thru Grease?

Post by Kurt28 » Fri Feb 04, 2022 6:42 am

HawkEye
I examined your images and think it cannot be in the planchet or in the washing process.
Ergo, it is most likely in the die.
Is it possible that a chemical caused a faint frosting in places, similar to an acid cleaning?
It may take 10 years but we'll find out.
Thanks for sharing.

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HawkeEye
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Re: Struck Thru Grease?

Post by HawkeEye » Fri Feb 04, 2022 10:08 pm

I am sure that there will be differing opinions, but my thinking is like yours. If you check these VAM 28.3 coins there is a small scalloped figure just below the eagle's right wing, above the leaves. This pattern repeats on a lot of the DMPL coins and is the same frosted looking area. There are other areas around the eagle that have a frosted look and I think the source is the same.

http://www.1881o.com/assets/81ov28_3-9508-rev-2200.jpg
http://www.1881o.com/assets/81ov28-9489-rev-2200.jpg
http://www.1881o.com/assets/81ov28-3551-rev-2452.jpg
http://www.1881o.com/assets/81ov28-2701-rev-2200.jpg

This is one advantage of my inventory. Little features like this might be dismissed without the ability to see it on multiple coins.
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Kurt28
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Re: Struck Thru Grease?

Post by Kurt28 » Sat Feb 05, 2022 4:18 am

If you were to line them up in a manner to show the progression of the "feature" you might ask is it getting bigger, or smaller?
My understanding is that regular dies do not progress to PL dies, but the other way around.
Thus, this feature may be contributed to the use of the die.
A result of wear on a PL die.
Just guessing.
The experts will correct me.
Thanks for sharing, and very nice coins.

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