Legal or Not?

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HawkeEye
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Legal or Not?

Post by HawkeEye » Sun Dec 19, 2021 6:56 pm

I ran into this post on reddit today and cannot believe this is legal.

https://www.reddit.com/r/coins/comments ... restrikes/

There are some guys making "tokens" from cancelled 1884-CC dies, and ANACS is grading them as tokens.

Surely this isn't legal?

They are striking them in gold and silver.
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...kenny
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Re: Legal or Not?

Post by ...kenny » Sun Dec 19, 2021 7:46 pm

It must be, Dan C and ANACS are doing it. The dies are cancelled and legally obtained. The minted disc's are called 'tokens' not coins. I'm SURE all legal questions were answered before the press was engaged...kenny
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HawkeEye
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Re: Legal or Not?

Post by HawkeEye » Sun Dec 19, 2021 8:19 pm

While the dies might have been legally obtained that would have been over 100 years ago. I wonder what the agreement with the Mint was in those days on reuse of cancelled dies?

From the NGC web site:

"After their useful life is over, dies are usually destroyed by a mint. Sometimes, however, they are cancelled and sold as a numismatic product or scrap. These cancelled dies are defaced to prevent them from being used to illegitimately strike more coins. Dies that have not been fully defaced and still show part of the coin’s design are particularly desirable to collectors."

And as a counterpoint, here is a listing for them on something called "Moonlight Mint" http://www.dc-coin.com/coloradogoldrush ... 3-1-1.aspx
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LateDateMorganGuy
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Re: Legal or Not?

Post by LateDateMorganGuy » Sun Dec 19, 2021 8:36 pm

Since I am not an attorney, I usually don't pay much attention to this type of stuff. I have to believe that both DC and ANACS fully vetted this prior to execution. That being said, not sure how any of this could be confused for legal tender.

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HawkeEye
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Re: Legal or Not?

Post by HawkeEye » Sun Dec 19, 2021 8:41 pm

My point also. I wonder if it would be considered legal tender, just defaced. But I have to believe they got some type legal ruling or exemption before striking them.
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messydesk
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Re: Legal or Not?

Post by messydesk » Sun Dec 19, 2021 8:58 pm

The Nevada State Museum in Carson City has been striking tokens/medals from cancelled Morgan dies (84 obv, 78 rev) on special occasions for years. Regardless of the medal used, there's little confusing these with coins that don't have a giant X on them. I bought one of the recent restrikes made from dies that Ash bought at the ANA. These were struck over 1884 Morgans.

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Re: Legal or Not?

Post by fogie » Sun Dec 19, 2021 10:45 pm

They are altered genuine US silver dollars. They are struck on genuine silver dollars (etc.) AND they are not struck to fool anyone. I believe that this redundancy in caution is specifically to prevent ugliness with the Feds. Clearly altering/defacing US coins has been going on for a VERY long time and does not cause the excitement that counterfeiting does.

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Re: Legal or Not?

Post by keilg1 » Mon Dec 20, 2021 7:30 am

messydesk wrote:
Sun Dec 19, 2021 8:58 pm
The Nevada State Museum in Carson City has been striking tokens/medals from cancelled Morgan dies (84 obv, 78 rev) on special occasions for years. Regardless of the medal used, there's little confusing these with coins that don't have a giant X on them. I bought one of the recent restrikes made from dies that Ash bought at the ANA. These were struck over 1884 Morgans.

Image
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HawkeEye
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Re: Legal or Not?

Post by HawkeEye » Mon Dec 20, 2021 10:15 pm

Heck, the Georgia state quarter used the wrong map. They chopped off the northwestern most county because someone at the Mint read an article about it seceding and going to Tennessee, which obviously never happened.
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Re: Legal or Not?

Post by RogerB » Tue Dec 21, 2021 4:15 pm

Look up the legal definition of a counterfeit coin, then the Hobby Protection Act.

If it looks like a coin, or acts like a coin, it is a counterfeit.

Looks like means has "United States of America" and a legal tender denomination. Content is irrelevant. (Same for any country and ancients, etc.)
Acts like means anything that could activate a coin operated device or be reasonably mistaken for a coin in commerce. (Passing a slug that is accepted by a vending machine is "uttering" a counterfeit.)

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messydesk
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Re: Legal or Not?

Post by messydesk » Tue Dec 21, 2021 5:27 pm

HawkeEye wrote:
Mon Dec 20, 2021 10:15 pm
Heck, the Georgia state quarter used the wrong map. They chopped off the northwestern most county because someone at the Mint read an article about it seceding and going to Tennessee, which obviously never happened.
Or they thought I-59 was the border.
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HawkeEye
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Re: Legal or Not?

Post by HawkeEye » Tue Dec 21, 2021 6:59 pm

Well I think it has been well documented that the surveyors got into the hooch a little too much and there is a kink in the border that isn't supposed to be there.

Atlanta was trying to claim access to the Tennessee River just south of Chattanooga as a water source. Obviously this went nowhere, but you can always try.

https://www.courthousenews.com/georgia- ... ee-border/

And politicians wonder why they are held in such low regard!

Oh, and the county that wanted to secede was Dade County. There wasn't a single road that went there from within Georgia. You had to drive into Tennessee and come back into Georgia to get there.

That battle was public and it is Dade County that is left off the quarter.
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twohawks
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Re: Legal or Not?

Post by twohawks » Thu Dec 23, 2021 4:28 pm

The group of tokens are not in violation of any laws. The 3 gold pieces have the metal type and purity rolled into the edges of each coin just like the modern dollar's edges. For general information, restrikes of canceled dies are 100% legal. The law that we are looking at, as well as case law from past court cases spell out what and how the law intrepid's the term "Intent" is defined.

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Kurt28
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Re: Legal or Not?

Post by Kurt28 » Mon Dec 27, 2021 6:54 am

Hawkeye, I'm not sure I understand.
Can you please state which law has been broken.
I am not an attorney, but would like to learn more about our legal system.

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HawkeEye
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Re: Legal or Not?

Post by HawkeEye » Mon Dec 27, 2021 4:13 pm

Neither am I a lawyer, but I am remembering that the printing of money and coinage is specifically limited to the federal government. My only real question probably centers around the reuse of government dies intended to strike legal tender for some private product or purpose.

Yes, they are cancelled, harshly, but the original intent of the dies was for the striking of legal tender coins. I am surprised that there isn't more restriction on reuse. But if it is legal and they can be reused, then have at it.

I am expressing surprise, not concern.

Interesting synopsis here https://deanclancy.com/the-constitution ... tems...%20

But this is from the Constitution and at the pace we now churn out laws keeping up with these provisions is way beyond me.
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Kurt28
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Re: Legal or Not?

Post by Kurt28 » Tue Dec 28, 2021 1:11 pm

I believe I understand you position, and thank you for clarifying.

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Re: Legal or Not?

Post by twohawks » Tue Dec 28, 2021 9:01 pm

I had an attorney stop in my shop today, and I showed him this tread. He stated the provisions within the law prohibit the striking of coinage for commerce. This also covers counterfeiting of any US negotiable notes, coinage, or debt instrument. The recently passed US law that was passed i.e.: "Hobbie Protection Act" has provisions that speak about "copy or replica coins" as well as re-strike coins.

1st off, re-strikes are not legal tender.

No, replicas are not legal tender. Under the U.S. Constitution, only the federal government can mint legal tender coins. Replicas of U.S. coins cannot be exchanged as legal tender or used as money.

2nd
Businesses do not need the U.S. Government’s permission to produce replicas of U.S. coins, unless the U.S. Government owns copyright in the coin design in question. Thus, consumers should not assume that the U.S. Government has approved or sponsored the advertised replicas. Of course, businesses are expected to ensure that their replicas do not violate U.S. counterfeiting laws.

As the coinage we are speaking about are not a replica's but are in fact a "legitimate US government canceled and discarded dies" and are also not coins for commerce. No governmental permission is required.

My visitor spent over 2 hours with me on this subject, and it was fun playing devil's advocate from both sides of this subject.

After placing an argument in regards of the chain of ownership of canceled dies and stating no bills of sales from the mint to prove they are not stolen from days of old exists. We found articles that stated that once the mint had permission to destroy the dies and had performed the task, the dies could be "literally throne out". With the government acknowledging that it was OK for a mint branch to dispose canceled dies into the trash, he finds no claim the US government could possibly make or defend in regard to ownership of canceled dies. He also concluded by stating, that the fact no claim has ever been filed against and owner of 1800's US canceled dies somewhat confirms his views in regard to the law.

Also, we clipped this from NGC. They actually grade modern canceled die re-strikes.
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HawkeEye
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Re: Legal or Not?

Post by HawkeEye » Wed Dec 29, 2021 12:09 am

Thanks for the update. I have seen the NGC encapsulated dies and they are an interesting collectible.

We probably beat this topic into submission. Good discussion and fun to speculate about.
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Kurt28
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Re: Legal or Not?

Post by Kurt28 » Wed Dec 29, 2021 1:29 am

I don't doubt that your Lawyer's information is correct, but it seems inconsistent with the history of the Norfed coins.
What am I missing.
Norfed.jpg
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In May 2009, Von NotHaus was charged with federal crimes in connection to the production of Liberty Dollars. On March 18, 2011, he was found guilty of "making coins resembling and similar to United States coins."

https://www.thesprucecrafts.com/norfed- ... ins-768362

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Re: Legal or Not?

Post by LateDateMorganGuy » Wed Dec 29, 2021 2:45 am

One thing I have learned in my storied professional career is that one attorney's interpretation of the law is another attorney's fallacy about the law. There is no one answer. Look around today, everyone has their own interpretation of the so called law in this country. The so called contemporary counterfeits are an example. We have all seen them and some folks hold them. Do you see the FBI/CIA running around confiscating them? What about folks consciously selling contemporary counterfeits?

As long as you have the money to pay attorney's fees, you can claim anything. Doesn't matter if you ultimately win or not in the argument as long as you stay out of prison and still have a living. I hate to be so curmudgeonly, but this is what my professional life has taught me.

The only good attorney is the one who wins your case.

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