Legal or Not?

General discussion board about VAMs, but no buy/sell offers
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HawkeEye
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Re: Legal or Not?

Post by HawkeEye » Wed Jan 12, 2022 6:39 pm

Well...............

Speaking of tokens as we were, what about the Dan Carr Morgans struck each year. I think I remember that these are actually struck on existing Morgan Dollars. This is another question since I thought I understood that only the obverse was restruck to change the date.

Legal?
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alefzero
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Re: Legal or Not?

Post by alefzero » Thu Jan 13, 2022 7:09 pm

HawkeEye wrote:
Wed Jan 12, 2022 6:39 pm
Well...............

Speaking of tokens as we were, what about the Dan Carr Morgans struck each year. I think I remember that these are actually struck on existing Morgan Dollars. This is another question since I thought I understood that only the obverse was restruck to change the date.

Legal?
Section 331 of Title 18 criminalizes defacement but only that motivated by fraudulent intent. So Counterstamps, overstrikes, hobo nickels, potty dollars, and opium smuggler box dollars are safe from the statute. Carr's overstrikes need to be approached from that and from the direction of design, which mimics designs from the Treasury without a stamped replica declaration (covers his strike in other metals as well as overstrikes). He is free to do so there as he does fantasy strikes, using dates not associated with actual coins. His products are not marketed as coins, but tokens and medals, and ANACS certifies them as such. If he did replicas without marking as such, then there would be a problem. That said, I owned an 1804 Mickley "restrike" large cent in NGC high mint state. That one might have been usable originally to defraud but would never work now. A magician's two-headed trick quarter is more fraudulent.

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HawkeEye
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Re: Legal or Not?

Post by HawkeEye » Thu Jan 13, 2022 10:04 pm

Having never held one, does it specifically have a marking as "copy" or something of the kind on it?

My first thoughts were that I was surprised by the listing premium on eBay given that they are essentially "fantasy" coins

My second thoughts were that if they are not marked, then once cracked out they could pass as real coins.

Now that we have the legit 2021 coins new collectors might not know the status.
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alefzero
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Re: Legal or Not?

Post by alefzero » Fri Jan 14, 2022 3:06 am

HawkeEye wrote:
Thu Jan 13, 2022 10:04 pm
Having never held one, does it specifically have a marking as "copy" or something of the kind on it?

My first thoughts were that I was surprised by the listing premium on eBay given that they are essentially "fantasy" coins

My second thoughts were that if they are not marked, then once cracked out they could pass as real coins.

Now that we have the legit 2021 coins new collectors might not know the status.
In this case, they are struck from cancelled dies, something Mint employees are specifically prohibited to do. Therefore, there is no mistake as to what they are in that respect. Sure, they could be misrepresented, but so can a lot of other stuff. See it on eBay with great regularity. As for the usual fantasy strikes Carr does, They do not need nor should they have COPY or REPLICA stamped on them as they could not possibly be replicating any coin available that was produced by the Mint. The 1964 Peace is even covered by that, as the Mint Director clarified, in writing, that no 1964 Peace dollar exists. The government maintains that all were collected and destroyed or placed in the Smithsonian collection. So it is all god as he produces and distributes them. No worries on my 1805 Bust dollars. They are true fantasies. (Had the 1804 ones been produced in later years than the statute and direction, the Mint employees would have been criminally liable. The 1964 SMS sets are legally uncertain. They were struck in 1965 using leftover 1964 dies. It might have been a problem that they were struck, but certainly that they got out of the Mint - about 2 dozen sets - not as patterns.)

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HawkeEye
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Re: Legal or Not?

Post by HawkeEye » Sat Jan 15, 2022 1:09 am

Interesting,, thanks for the information.
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Kurt28
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Re: Legal or Not?

Post by Kurt28 » Sat Jan 15, 2022 2:13 am

My take, and it is likely to vary as I learn more, is that the regulations cover what the mint must do with used dies. I haven't seen regulations having authority over someone that comes in possession of such dies.
If I go to the dumpster behind the local Police department and recover a revolver they have discarded, this may violate their regulations on disposal, but by bringing it home, have I committed a crime?

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HawkeEye
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Re: Legal or Not?

Post by HawkeEye » Sat Jan 15, 2022 1:40 pm

My thought is that at that point it might be considered counterfeiting because the dies were obtained and used outside of the Mint. But just a feeling based on right VS wrong and thinking about currency.
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