Legal or Not?

General discussion board about VAMs, but no buy/sell offers
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Kurt28
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Re: Legal or Not?

Post by Kurt28 » Wed Dec 29, 2021 3:04 am

I agree LDMG, and I have spent some time learning about the law.
It has turned my hair white.
But when it comes to expressing my views, especially concerning our currency, I sometimes get in trouble.

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LateDateMorganGuy
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Re: Legal or Not?

Post by LateDateMorganGuy » Wed Dec 29, 2021 3:33 am

I have learned that regardless of my thoughts about law, there is an attorney that will rake me over the coals. No sense in trying to make sense out of something that makes no sense.

keilg1
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Re: Legal or Not?

Post by keilg1 » Wed Dec 29, 2021 12:16 pm

DISCLAIMER: This is not to suggest anything (necessarily) about any (particular) person in the VAMWorld world.

I appreciate and honor the spirit of this post - especially the sincere desire to learn more about how our hobby can't not intersect with the 50+ shades of grey world of what constitutes legal tender, commerce, truthfulness in advertising, etc. Money is, after all, money; and because money/wealth often equates to (temporary) power, those desiring the latter tend to control the definitions and use of the former.

What I'd like to add to the debate is not any particular stance of expertise on the topic, but a more philosophy-meets-reality one.

For those of you who don't know me, the day job that allows me to search for and secure many interesting coins is being a lecturer/researcher/clinician on medical leadership, education and research. I've been studying the human brain for 30+ years now, trying to figure out why and how our beloved 'head full of mush' simultaneously represents the greatest asset we have to create a peaceful and healthy world whilst also being our worst enemy. At 55 years old, and after searching to better understand this ONE bodily organ for more decades than I've not, I can openly admit that I do not consider myself 'woke' on the topic. It seems the more I learn the more I realize my level of understanding is woefully inadequate.

What I have come to know (and countless studies support) is that people love to think they know a lot more on a topic than they really do. This 'certainty' increases as our level of understanding increases, until we realize that we began to learn how ignorant we are. A little bit of understanding is a dangerous thing... until we really start to more deeply understand the topic.

A rather simplistic (and not very scientific) summary of this is called the Dunning-Kreuger effect if you've not heard of it:
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This is interesting enough and makes life a joy to live. None of us, by the way, are immune to the effect... Combining this with the fact that we also live in an information-rich but wisdom-poor world makes life even more enjoyable or amusing!? The amount of information at our fingertips is staggering... and we're raised by well-meaning but off-base family members, teachers, clergy, and, yes, political realms that "our opinions count as much as any one else's". Democratic approaches to life allow all of us to self-actualize and to our highest potential, right?

History and our current world prove this is not the case. This explains why the 'founding fathers of Democracy' (in ancient times or in the US back in the late 18th century) didn't actually espouse the philosophy of democracy... They were crafty businessMEN who wanted to develop systems that kept them in ... power.

Our collective thinking that our opinions count equally amongst others is a major driving factor of our problems. If you're interested in more of my ramblings, please see: https://gjkeil2-82005.medium.com/dumboc ... 6c5dd1ff7f.

The point here? Interesting to hear and learn the opinions of others. Lawyers or not - but I'll not give you the power to influence my decision to purchase one of the coins mentioned. I'm happy I have one in hand and don't care about legality... but the whole process does interest me. As do your thoughts and opinions.

Again, this is to NOT imply that anyone contributing to this thread has done anything wrong, proven themselves to be ignorant, etc. We're all here because of a shared passion - albeit a questionably insane one - and I see us as much more alike than different.

Thanks to all on this thread for edifying me a bit during this holiday 'break.' I appreciate you, your opinions and your experiences. I love the nuances and various shades of life - they're what prevent this world from being bland!

Happy Hump Day to all and wishing us a collective safe and fun new year.

Gary

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Kurt28
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Re: Legal or Not?

Post by Kurt28 » Wed Dec 29, 2021 1:40 pm

Standing ovation.

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HawkeEye
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Re: Legal or Not?

Post by HawkeEye » Thu Dec 30, 2021 1:52 am

And I thought I had a point, counter-point brief discussion where I would learn something about how these dies could be reused legitimately. This sucker has a life of its own, which probably says Congress is involved somewhere along the way.

As the originator, I vote we bury this one since apparently we could point, counter-point to infinity!
Deep in the woods of North Georgia

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Kurt28
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Re: Legal or Not?

Post by Kurt28 » Thu Dec 30, 2021 9:51 am

"I vote we bury this one since apparently we could point, counter-point to infinity!"

Isn't that the essence of learning?

In Plato's The Republic he argued against Democracy as a flawed form of government.
Twenty four hundred years ago.

keilg1
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Re: Legal or Not?

Post by keilg1 » Thu Dec 30, 2021 10:06 am

HawkeEye wrote:
Thu Dec 30, 2021 1:52 am
And I thought I had a point, counter-point brief discussion where I would learn something about how these dies could be reused legitimately. This sucker has a life of its own, which probably says Congress is involved somewhere along the way.

As the originator, I vote we bury this one since apparently we could point, counter-point to infinity!
@HawkeEye, you and the administrators may bury this, but I'd ask it not to be. As @Kurt28 mentions, and I agree, learning only ceases when we stop.

I know my approach to discussions run counter to the fast-food mentality and society that has been constructed as of late, but I like dialogue... rich, deep, explorations of the current unknown, without rush. I'd rather these conversations be done live and with a good gin or other drink, but electronic is the current mode.

I'd still love to learn more about this topic because the answers have missed the mark for me but will fall quiet on this post to not propagate any apparent involvement of Congress. :?

Honestly, thanks for starting the thread. I think it a fascinating slant of the fun.

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HawkeEye
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Re: Legal or Not?

Post by HawkeEye » Thu Dec 30, 2021 1:15 pm

Well if we want to continue down the rabbit hole no one has mentioned the Chinese fakes and how they are flooding the market. Those who post here can detect and avoid them, but the typical consumer probably cannot. For some reason the Feds seem to ignore this threat to the collecting community.

I had forgotten about the Liberty Dollar episode and it is strange that it would create such a stir when all these other fakes roam around.

Then there are Goldbacks, which I happen to like as a collectible but not the currency angle. Apparently there is a twist in the law that allows these as intrastate currency so long as they are not considered legal tender beyond the State's border. Would the same have applied to the Liberty Dollars?

I still think the coins (tokens) struck from cancelled dies could be an issue, although a small one. I think somewhere in the recesses of my mind that I read the Mint sold or gave away uncancelled dies for a while, so where do those stand?
Deep in the woods of North Georgia

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Kurt28
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Re: Legal or Not?

Post by Kurt28 » Thu Dec 30, 2021 2:22 pm

I like rabbit holes, they offer much. And I have always said that VAMmers are the smartest people I have ever met. So let's share our views.

Yes there is a problem with Chinese fakes, but that has nothing to do with legality, it is a problem of enforcement. The law is clear.

And the Liberty Dollar affords us an opportunity to observe that those in power (and I purposely avoid the word government,) will selectively enforce laws and regulations. Selective law enforcement is not law enforcement, but a tool used to punish one group instead of another.

I am not familiar with the goldbacks, but my belief is that there not as many “loopholes” in the law as we are told. Instead, laws are written to benefit a special few.
This is why members of Congress are protected from sexual harassment laws and are allowed to engage in insider trading.
There is a similar interesting debate taking place in the firearms industry. As the Inter State Commerce Commission derives it's authority from the 10th Amendment, any product not sold across state lines is not subject to Federal regulations.
Thus, some firearms manufacturers have begun production and claim they are not under Federal jurisdiction because they do not sell out of state. The states involved may have been Montana or Idaho, and their motive was not to sell to “Gangstas” (as we have well established trade venues that already do that,) but to avoid excessive taxes and record keeping.

“I still think the coins (tokens) struck from cancelled dies could be an issue,”
I do too, and I'm glad you brought the topic to our attention and let us talk about it.

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HawkeEye
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Re: Legal or Not?

Post by HawkeEye » Fri Dec 31, 2021 2:49 am

To follow up on this a little more, Roger is being modest in his knowledge.
If I may quote from his book "Mine to Mint" pages 407 and 408.
I am not a salesman for Roger, but I have to say I find this book to be indispensable in working through die issues.
If you don't have one put it on your list.

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You will notice that the INTENT was that the dies be defaced and buried, not to be in the hands of private citizens.
PLEASE SEE NEXT POST
Last edited by HawkeEye on Fri Dec 31, 2021 3:48 am, edited 3 times in total.
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HawkeEye
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Re: Legal or Not?

Post by HawkeEye » Fri Dec 31, 2021 3:02 am

Then I found these 1890 regs
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This says to me that dies were getting out of the Mint that should have been defaced or destroyed. The regs were tightened to force all dies to be numbered and returned to Philadelphia.

And then there is the metal issue. The regs and laws clearly state that no coin is to ever be struck from a metal other than that authorized by Congress. So in striking gold copies of the tokens are we violating the letter or spirit of that law?
Last edited by HawkeEye on Fri Dec 31, 2021 3:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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HawkeEye
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Re: Legal or Not?

Post by HawkeEye » Fri Dec 31, 2021 3:28 am

And then there is the issue of Goldbacks, now issued in Nevada, Utah, and New Hampshire. Apparently, Maine and Wyoming are slated to issue them also. I think of these as collectibles, but they raise interesting legal questions.

Goldbacks are legal tender in the State of issue. This is done by having each State authorize a State currency, and apparently the sovereignty of the state supersedes the Federal law. I don't get it, but apparently it works. And a neat trick is that the value floats with the price of gold. So a 1 (not 1 dollor, just 1) Goldback is worth 1/1000 of an ounce of gold plus production premium and apparently some merchants take them. Maybe only as a novelty, but they do circulate and no one questions their legality or validity. But... since they actually contain the face content of gold they are denominated in they become usable anywhere.

So, could the Liberty Dollar folks have avoided all their problems by making them a State currency or coin?
NevadaGoldbacks2020.jpg
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Can you avoid issues with the token CC Morgans by having the State of Nevada authorize them as the State coinage?

No ideas, but fun to ponder.
Deep in the woods of North Georgia

keilg1
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Re: Legal or Not?

Post by keilg1 » Fri Dec 31, 2021 10:19 am

WOW!

Thanks for sharing. This is an extra fine find to end the year on. As mentioned, I love learning and this will keep me pacified in a non-pacifistic way for at least a few days.

Intent, law, freedom of expression, deception, power and more. All the makings of a good novel - and a fascinating reality?

Agree with you, @Kurt28, many of the folks who are active on VAMWorld are smart cookies and a wealth of knowledge to be tapped.

I hope my mentioning that democracies can turn into dumbocracies all too easily did not suggest it is happening here. For sure, we all should be able to voice our thoughts and opinions - as we all can judge each correspondence around its merit and legitimacy as fact or opinion. This is the slant of democracy that the founding fathers wanted to capture, not the idea that each of our opinions should count the same.

Definitely going to pick up Roger's book if it's still in print. Any pointers on how to get a legal copy would be greatly appreciated as I'm sure I can find numerous ones illegally. :(

Thanks again for sharing an amazing trove of treasure - for free!

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HawkeEye
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Re: Legal or Not?

Post by HawkeEye » Fri Dec 31, 2021 11:22 am

I think you contact Roger here and let him tell you.

If you are into more that "it's a shinney disk" then this is a must read.

It explains a lot of the why and how that VAMmers often struggle with.
Deep in the woods of North Georgia

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Kurt28
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Re: Legal or Not?

Post by Kurt28 » Fri Dec 31, 2021 1:33 pm

I just ordered a copy from Wizzard and am embarrassed I waited so long.
I'm sure I'll have some more questions, but my brain is a little fuzzy as I didn't go to bed last night and still have a few hours work ahead of me.
Thanks All.

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HawkeEye
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Re: Legal or Not?

Post by HawkeEye » Fri Dec 31, 2021 3:21 pm

It will be worth the time to read and you will understand the inner workings of the Mints much better.
Deep in the woods of North Georgia

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Kurt28
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Re: Legal or Not?

Post by Kurt28 » Wed Jan 05, 2022 5:04 pm

My copy just arrived and at the risk of playing the fool, it is a gold mine of information.
I'm not sure when I will be able to study the book, but I did take a quick at the section on regulations.
As the regs appear to be written prior to the Reconstruction Amendments, I believe they are lawful (as opposed to legal)and are constitutionally enforceable.

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HawkeEye
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Re: Legal or Not?

Post by HawkeEye » Wed Jan 05, 2022 5:50 pm

As in making even tokens from cancelled dies at least breaks the spirit of the regulations?

I have to admit that this is a bit of an enjoyable rabbit hole.
Deep in the woods of North Georgia

keilg1
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Re: Legal or Not?

Post by keilg1 » Fri Jan 07, 2022 2:49 pm

Kurt28 wrote:
Wed Jan 05, 2022 5:04 pm
My copy just arrived and at the risk of playing the fool, it is a gold mine of information.
I'm not sure when I will be able to study the book, but I did take a quick at the section on regulations.
As the regs appear to be written prior to the Reconstruction Amendments, I believe they are lawful (as opposed to legal)and are constitutionally enforceable.
My supposedly autographed copy is on the way... Similar to you Kurt, I don't know when I'll find time to read let alone study this but I'm sure I will! I'm sure my wife will understand why my honey-do list isn't getting smaller?

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HawkeEye
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Re: Legal or Not?

Post by HawkeEye » Fri Jan 07, 2022 8:54 pm

Once I read the book I started to use it as a reference. As I remember I kind of read a chapter a day because it isn'r light reading. Once you get through it you will understand a lot more on the processes at the Mint.
Deep in the woods of North Georgia

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