1921P potential duplicate listings

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weth
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1921P potential duplicate listings

Post by weth » Fri Dec 03, 2021 9:04 pm

As I gather further 1921P examples, I’m becoming better able to make comparisons and connections between different listings, such that I’m finding more examples of what may be duplicates. I was planning on addressing these with LVA soon, but with the recent announcement by Dr. Fey perhaps I must wait to resolve them. I’ll list these potential redundancies here in case anyone wishes to challenge my assertions by helping to differentiate them:

1) 1921P VAM 1Q is the same as VAM 1AA - My VSS 1Q attributed examples matches my ANACS 1AA attributed example, and I see that the listings are basically congruous; both have the “diagonal polishing line connecting bottom of second right tail feather between legs to top arrow shaft.”

2) 1921P VAM 3FW is the same as VAM 81 EDS - On the VAM 3FW page it is listed as a possible duplicate of VAM 3GB, but I don’t believe this is the case.

3) 1921P VAM 3DV is the same as VAM 3AN EDS (and 3DV2 is 3AN2)

Just yesterday I noticed that:

4) 1921P VAM 3FH is the same as VAM 104 - Both have the notch on the O in ONE, both have the little tab on the third tail feather.

I’d appreciate any feedback anyone might have regarding these comparisons.

DHalladay
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Re: 1921P potential duplicate listings

Post by DHalladay » Fri Dec 03, 2021 11:34 pm

I agree on all 4 counts Tom.
Great work... and thanks for your detective work!!
When in doubt... don't.

RogerRock
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Re: 1921P potential duplicate listings

Post by RogerRock » Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:38 am

Yes, all four appear to be duplicates. Thank you for pointing this out. My two contributions VAM 3DV2 and VAM 3AN2 appear to be duplicates.
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weth
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Re: 1921P potential duplicate listings

Post by weth » Mon Dec 06, 2021 8:16 pm

Thank you for your feedback, gentlemen! I've been doing so much cross-referencing lately between different 21P examples and various photos and descriptions available. It's sad/funny how there are about a dozen pairs that are likely duplicates, but there aren't enough photos available to be sure. Two more pairs, however, that I am pretty convinced are dupes are:

(5) 1921P VAM 3CC looks to be an LDS example of VAM 3AV

(6) 1921P VAM 3GF is the same as VAM 3BX

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messydesk
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Re: 1921P potential duplicate listings

Post by messydesk » Mon Dec 06, 2021 8:53 pm

I had a 1Q/1AA on my desk just last night, and I agree that they're the same. I'll look at the others, as well, but I assume that if you and Dennis agree on this, then I will, too.
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DHalladay
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Re: 1921P potential duplicate listings

Post by DHalladay » Mon Dec 06, 2021 9:03 pm

Tom:

This is fabulous work you are doing. Bravo!
The absence of LVA plate images on the attribution pages makes confirming things so problematic, but here's what I can offer:

VAM 3AV: All the attribution page has is a scribbles photo, which is at least the best one to have.
– I have what I'm calling a 3AV because its scribbles are a match.

VAM 3CC: There are no plate images on the attribution page, and the one that is there is a plate image of 3AV scribbles...which only serves to confuse things.

– I don't have a 3CC to compare to anything.



VAM 3BX: There are no LVA plate images, but Crae's scribbles photos give me high confidence that it is a 3BX.

VAM 3GF: There are no LVA plate images, but the "additional photos" match VAM 3BX, most notably the upward gouge from the top of Liberty's eyelid.

– I have both 3BX and 3GF, both are attributed by VSS, and they are a match.
When in doubt... don't.

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messydesk
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Re: 1921P potential duplicate listings

Post by messydesk » Wed Dec 08, 2021 4:34 pm

I'm hoping that I can get a copy of Leroy's original notes and photos fairly soon so that perhaps we can put some of this confusion to bed permanently.
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weth
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Re: 1921P potential duplicate listings

Post by weth » Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:51 am

I am indeed hoping that a reexamination of LVA's photos may help sort out some of the 21Ps, especially those for which a photo hasn't been published.

One more to add - I think that VAM 1BA is an early die state of VAM 1Z. Attributed examples both show a die file line to the first S in states, that wide G clash, and the same sets of obverse and reverse polishing lines.

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messydesk
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Re: 1921P potential duplicate listings

Post by messydesk » Thu Jan 20, 2022 4:22 am

VAMs 3GR, 3HC, 42 seem the same. 42 as shown is a later die stage than the coin shown as 3HC. Will probably make these 42 (no break at F) and 42A (break at F).
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weth
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Re: 1921P potential duplicate listings

Post by weth » Tue Jan 17, 2023 2:01 am

Thanks everyone for your observations and insight; I think we made a lot of progress! Thanks especially to @fogie for making repeated corrections to what constitutes a current SSDC 21P set. (Speaking of which, Brent, if you could at some point reinstate VAM 20, that would be great. Yes, it was killed because JR's discovery coin matched VAM 89, but LVA confirmed that VAM 20A doesn't match VAM 89 and that the early unpitted die state of VAM 20A is now VAM 20).

I want to point out three other similar pairings; as far as I can tell, they are the same. If they are not the same, it would help to point out what differentiates them. If the situation is ambiguous (e.g. sure, same reverse, but do they have the same obverse?) then it would help to understand what specific examples could be compared to resolve the matter:

VAM 1BA appears to be an EDS of VAM 1Z
VAM 115 appears to be the same as VAM 84
VAM 125 appears to be the same as VAM 3EP

Thank you for your help and your feedback on these, or any other 21P issues that you think needs clarifying.

keilg1
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Re: 1921P potential duplicate listings

Post by keilg1 » Tue Jan 17, 2023 7:11 am

More great work and to be appreciated and congratulated.

weth
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Re: 1921P potential duplicate listings

Post by weth » Sat Jan 21, 2023 1:57 am

weth wrote:
Tue Jan 17, 2023 2:01 am
VAM 1BA appears to be an EDS of VAM 1Z
VAM 115 appears to be the same as VAM 84
VAM 125 appears to be the same as VAM 3EP

One more, in that I can't seem to differentiate VAM 126 from VAM 6...

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