1921P potential duplicate listings

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weth
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1921P potential duplicate listings

Post by weth » Fri Dec 03, 2021 9:04 pm

Hi gang,

Since there has been a lot of progress since the start of this thread, I am modifying this first post to summarize some of the recent 21P listing changes, those issues that need further input to resolve, and other possibilities that have been mentioned:

Listing changes:
VAM 1G has been retired as it is redundant with VAM 1AQn
VAM 1L has been retired as it is redundant with VAM 129
VAM 1Z has been retired, superseded by VAM 130
VAM 1AA has been retired as it is redundant with VAM 1Q
VAM 1BA has been retired as it is redundant with VAM 1Z
VAM 1BB is now recognized as VAM 120A
VAM 1BO has been retired as it is redundant with VAM 109
VAM 1BR has been retired as it is redundant with VAM 109
VAM 3CC has been retired as it is redundant with VAM 3AV
VAM 3DT has been retired as it is redundant with VAM 74
VAM 3DVn has been retired as it is redundant with VAM 3ANn
VAM 3DXn has been retired as it is redundant with VAM 3ADn
VAM 3DZ has been retired as it is redundant with VAM 82
VAM 3FH has been retired as it is redundant with VAM 104
VAM 3FW has been retired as it is redundant with VAM 81
VAM 3GC has been retired as it is redundant with VAM 3FA1
VAM 3GF has been retired as it is redundant with VAM 3BX
VAM 3Gi has been retired as it is redundant with VAM 3EF
VAM 3GP has been retired as being redundant with VAM 3AZ
VAM 3GR has been retired as it is redundant with VAM 42
VAM 3HC has been retired as it is redundant with VAM 42
VAM 3HX has been retired as it is redundant with VAM 3GE
VAM 38A has been retired as it is redundant with VAM 1P
VAM 81/81A have been retired and folded into VAM 3BQ1/2/3/4
VAM 87 has been retired as it is redundant with VAM 85
VAM 98 has been retired as it is redundant with VAM 88
VAM 115 has been retired as it is redundant with VAM 84
VAM 125 has been retired as it is redundant with VAM 3EP
VAM 126 has been retired as it is redundant with VAM 6

VAM 124 and VAM 112A share a reverse

Pending issues (need to see discovery coin):
VAM 12 may be the same as VAM 1AZ
VAM 60 may be the same as VAM 79
VAM 65 may be the same as VAM 85

Other open issues brought up:
VAM 56A looks similar to VAM 3AN2
VAM 95 appears to be the same as VAM 1AW
VAM 121 looks to be the same as VAM 105
VAM 122 appears to be the same as VAM 99
Last edited by weth on Fri Sep 15, 2023 3:58 pm, edited 4 times in total.

DHalladay
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Re: 1921P potential duplicate listings

Post by DHalladay » Fri Dec 03, 2021 11:34 pm

I agree on all 4 counts Tom.
Great work... and thanks for your detective work!!
When in doubt... don't.

RogerRock
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Re: 1921P potential duplicate listings

Post by RogerRock » Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:38 am

Yes, all four appear to be duplicates. Thank you for pointing this out. My two contributions VAM 3DV2 and VAM 3AN2 appear to be duplicates.
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weth
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Re: 1921P potential duplicate listings

Post by weth » Mon Dec 06, 2021 8:16 pm

Thank you for your feedback, gentlemen! I've been doing so much cross-referencing lately between different 21P examples and various photos and descriptions available. It's sad/funny how there are about a dozen pairs that are likely duplicates, but there aren't enough photos available to be sure. Two more pairs, however, that I am pretty convinced are dupes are:

(5) 1921P VAM 3CC looks to be an LDS example of VAM 3AV

(6) 1921P VAM 3GF is the same as VAM 3BX

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messydesk
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Re: 1921P potential duplicate listings

Post by messydesk » Mon Dec 06, 2021 8:53 pm

I had a 1Q/1AA on my desk just last night, and I agree that they're the same. I'll look at the others, as well, but I assume that if you and Dennis agree on this, then I will, too.
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DHalladay
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Re: 1921P potential duplicate listings

Post by DHalladay » Mon Dec 06, 2021 9:03 pm

Tom:

This is fabulous work you are doing. Bravo!
The absence of LVA plate images on the attribution pages makes confirming things so problematic, but here's what I can offer:

VAM 3AV: All the attribution page has is a scribbles photo, which is at least the best one to have.
– I have what I'm calling a 3AV because its scribbles are a match.

VAM 3CC: There are no plate images on the attribution page, and the one that is there is a plate image of 3AV scribbles...which only serves to confuse things.

– I don't have a 3CC to compare to anything.



VAM 3BX: There are no LVA plate images, but Crae's scribbles photos give me high confidence that it is a 3BX.

VAM 3GF: There are no LVA plate images, but the "additional photos" match VAM 3BX, most notably the upward gouge from the top of Liberty's eyelid.

– I have both 3BX and 3GF, both are attributed by VSS, and they are a match.
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messydesk
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Re: 1921P potential duplicate listings

Post by messydesk » Wed Dec 08, 2021 4:34 pm

I'm hoping that I can get a copy of Leroy's original notes and photos fairly soon so that perhaps we can put some of this confusion to bed permanently.
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weth
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Re: 1921P potential duplicate listings

Post by weth » Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:51 am

I am indeed hoping that a reexamination of LVA's photos may help sort out some of the 21Ps, especially those for which a photo hasn't been published.

One more to add - I think that VAM 1BA is an early die state of VAM 1Z. Attributed examples both show a die file line to the first S in states, that wide G clash, and the same sets of obverse and reverse polishing lines.

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messydesk
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Re: 1921P potential duplicate listings

Post by messydesk » Thu Jan 20, 2022 4:22 am

VAMs 3GR, 3HC, 42 seem the same. 42 as shown is a later die stage than the coin shown as 3HC. Will probably make these 42 (no break at F) and 42A (break at F).
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weth
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Re: 1921P potential duplicate listings

Post by weth » Tue Jan 17, 2023 2:01 am

Thanks everyone for your observations and insight; I think we made a lot of progress! Thanks especially to @fogie for making repeated corrections to what constitutes a current SSDC 21P set. (Speaking of which, Brent, if you could at some point reinstate VAM 20, that would be great. Yes, it was killed because JR's discovery coin matched VAM 89, but LVA confirmed that VAM 20A doesn't match VAM 89 and that the early unpitted die state of VAM 20A is now VAM 20).

I want to point out three other similar pairings; as far as I can tell, they are the same. If they are not the same, it would help to point out what differentiates them. If the situation is ambiguous (e.g. sure, same reverse, but do they have the same obverse?) then it would help to understand what specific examples could be compared to resolve the matter:

VAM 1BA appears to be an EDS of VAM 1Z
VAM 115 appears to be the same as VAM 84
VAM 125 appears to be the same as VAM 3EP

Thank you for your help and your feedback on these, or any other 21P issues that you think needs clarifying.

keilg1
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Re: 1921P potential duplicate listings

Post by keilg1 » Tue Jan 17, 2023 7:11 am

More great work and to be appreciated and congratulated.

weth
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Re: 1921P potential duplicate listings

Post by weth » Sat Jan 21, 2023 1:57 am

weth wrote:
Tue Jan 17, 2023 2:01 am
VAM 1BA appears to be an EDS of VAM 1Z
VAM 115 appears to be the same as VAM 84
VAM 125 appears to be the same as VAM 3EP

One more, in that I can't seem to differentiate VAM 126 from VAM 6...

weth
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Re: 1921P potential duplicate listings

Post by weth » Tue Apr 18, 2023 12:18 am

There’s been some good progress lately, and I’d like to thank JB for his patience with me and prudence in making judicious edits to the set. I’m not sure we’ll ever retire all the redundancies in the listings, but it’s nicer when they’re a little more concise. I have a few more things to pursue, and I’d also appreciate input on the following:

1) At this point I have multiple VSS-attributed VAM 1AZ examples, as well as multiple ANACS-attributed VAM 12 examples; they all match. On the one hand, it’s all fine and I have both registry slots filled, but on the other hand it would be more intellectually satisfying if I could get @vampicker and @messydesk to call this die pair the same thing (or point out how they differ if either of you think they do). So I’m saying please, contemplate this.

2) Is there a difference between VAM 105 and VAM 121? They both show photos of a doubled cap, doubled letters, and that diagonal scratch in the leaf gap. Aren’t they the same?

3) What’s up with VAM 56A? On it’s page is just one photo, and it looks for all the world like it’s a VAM 3AN2. Does anyone have one of these and can they provide more detail?

4) So, I noticed that my ANACS-attributed VAM 3GP example has a gouge at the R in DOLLAR that looks like it’s the same as the one shown for VAM 3AZ. But I also see the photos of the VAM 3GP discovery coin don’t have that gouge, so I’m wondering - maybe 3AZ is a late die state of 3GP? My 3GP example otherwise does match all the 3GP photos, but there are no photos on the 3AZ page other than the gouge itself. So if you have a VAM 3GP could you check if there is a gouge, and/or if you have a VAM 3AZ could you check if it also has the VAM 3GP features and diagnostics, please? I’d appreciate it!

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Albannach
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Re: 1921P potential duplicate listings

Post by Albannach » Tue Apr 18, 2023 1:20 am

I have something I labeled 81, there's a note about it on the 81A page and was an old thread.

It's just short of the break happening and has Wicked Amazing polishing. If you want pics, I'll dig it out.

Let me know.

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messydesk
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Re: 1921P potential duplicate listings

Post by messydesk » Tue Apr 18, 2023 2:08 pm

weth wrote:
Tue Apr 18, 2023 12:18 am
...
1) At this point I have multiple VSS-attributed VAM 1AZ examples, as well as multiple ANACS-attributed VAM 12 examples; they all match. On the one hand, it’s all fine and I have both registry slots filled, but on the other hand it would be more intellectually satisfying if I could get @vampicker and @messydesk to call this die pair the same thing (or point out how they differ if either of you think they do). So I’m saying please, contemplate this.
The problem with VAM 12 is that by the standards of what is cataloged today for 1921 it is underspecified and may refer to any number of other listings. Of course, there may be a coin that fits the specification of VAM 12 quite well and doesn't fit any other. If the pictures shown on the VAM 12 page are of a better cataloged variety, then they shouldn't be there. If they are of the VAM 12 discovery coin, then we can more easily handle it.
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DHalladay
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Re: 1921P potential duplicate listings

Post by DHalladay » Tue Apr 18, 2023 3:10 pm

I wish I could be of more help but...

I don't have a VAM 12 because I became convinced it is really 1AZ, so I put a 1AZ sticker on it.

I don't have either a 105 or 121, so I can't offer any opinion other than to say that LVA's "Diagonal Die Scratch Leaf Gap" plate image for VAM 105 matches the @messydesk photo on the VAM 121 page.

I don't have a 56A, and my Excel inventory notes for VAMs 3AN1-3AN2-3AN3 say they are actually the 3DV family.

I do have a 3GP, but it doesn't have a gouge at the R in DOLLAR.

I don't have a 3AZ.

I don't have an 86A, but I do have two 86s and they also have wicked polishing:

DH small 26604132.jpg
DH small 26604132.jpg (259.28 KiB) Viewed 1494 times
DH small 30692970.jpg
DH small 30692970.jpg (269.67 KiB) Viewed 1494 times
When in doubt... don't.

weth
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Re: 1921P potential duplicate listings

Post by weth » Mon Apr 24, 2023 2:37 am

I just edited the first post to be a summary, and will edit further if there might be more changes.

DHalladay
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Re: 1921P potential duplicate listings

Post by DHalladay » Mon Apr 24, 2023 4:27 am

Thanks very much for the update Tom!
When in doubt... don't.

DHalladay
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Re: 1921P potential duplicate listings

Post by DHalladay » Fri May 05, 2023 1:13 pm

@weth: I don't have a VAM 1BB or a VAM 120A, but I do have a VAM 120. There's no doubt about it, 1BB is the same as 120A. Great work!

Now we need to get @messydesk to make the call about which one to kill, so we can remove something from the official date set.
When in doubt... don't.

RogerRock
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Re: 1921P potential duplicate listings

Post by RogerRock » Fri May 05, 2023 5:19 pm

DHalladay wrote:
Fri May 05, 2023 1:13 pm
@weth: I don't have a VAM 1BB or a VAM 120A, but I do have a VAM 120. There's no doubt about it, 1BB is the same as 120A. Great work!

Now we need to get @messydesk to make the call about which one to kill, so we can remove something from the official date set.
The 1921 P VAM 1BB has been listed for Die Break A Top since 2013 by LVA. The displaced field break is also displayed above AMER. A single vertical polishing line at left side of upper tail feathers is the die marker
My 1921 P VAM 1BB Discovery Piece was my first contribution on VAMWorld. The twin diagonal die cracks above the A look more LDS than VAM 120A and were the primary reason for this VAM 1BB listing which is still in my collection.
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