Questions about SSCD "Buffed Reverses" registry

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keilg1
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Questions about SSCD "Buffed Reverses" registry

Post by keilg1 » Sat Oct 09, 2021 11:55 am

Don't know if I can/should ask this here, but how are additions to SSDC registries woven in? I.e., I'd like to ask the new discovery coin to be included.

The VAM-81 is a new addition/variety (http://ec2-13-58-222-16.us-east-2.compu ... 0-O_VAM-81) to the 1880-O family of mistreated reverse dies that include the VAM-45A (http://ec2-13-58-222-16.us-east-2.compu ... -O_VAM-45A and the VAM-78 http://ec2-13-58-222-16.us-east-2.compu ... 0-O_VAM-78) that are kindred spirits to the rest of the registry.

Based on inclusion of 45A and 78, can the 81 become a valid type?

Other questions: Is the 1888-P VAM-7D (http://ec2-13-58-222-16.us-east-2.compu ... 8-P_VAM-7D) the only die state of that lovely beast included in the registry? The earlier states show different, albeit, impressive wear?

Why is the 1888-O VAM-1J (http://ec2-13-58-222-16.us-east-2.compu ... 8-O_VAM-1J) included but the 1888-O VAM-1K (http://ec2-13-58-222-16.us-east-2.compu ... 8-O_VAM-1K) not?

A different, but related, question on obverse buffed varieties has to do with the current exclusion of the 1880-P VAM-1G (http://ec2-13-58-222-16.us-east-2.compu ... 0-P_VAM-1G) but the inclusion of the VAM-35A (http://ec2-13-58-222-16.us-east-2.compu ... -P_VAM-35A)?

Please, SSDC leads/administrators, your thoughts?

Thanks,

Gary
Gary Redfeather, PhD, RPh

https://www.linkedin.com/in/drgarykeil/

Click https://gjkeil2-82005.medium.com/our-lo ... 485d6cf0a5 to read the backstory of my surname change

RogerB
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Re: Questions about SSCD "Buffed Reverses" registry

Post by RogerB » Sat Oct 09, 2021 7:37 pm

Not a reply; however, the definition seems inconsistent:

Buffed Reverse
Highly over polished and eroded dies.
(See -1883-O VAM-1C1)

Polishing and erosion are different things. "Buffed" implies polishing or use of abrasive, and has nothing to do with erosion and displacement of die steel. The on-line photos show primarily die erosion.

Anyone have thoughts?

blh74
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Re: Questions about SSCD "Buffed Reverses" registry

Post by blh74 » Sun Oct 10, 2021 12:01 am

RogerB wrote:
Sat Oct 09, 2021 7:37 pm
Not a reply; however, the definition seems inconsistent:

Buffed Reverse
Highly over polished and eroded dies.
(See -1883-O VAM-1C1)

Polishing and erosion are different things. "Buffed" implies polishing or use of abrasive, and has nothing to do with erosion and displacement of die steel. The on-line photos show primarily die erosion.

Anyone have thoughts?
I agree totally. They are two different things.

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messydesk
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Re: Questions about SSCD "Buffed Reverses" registry

Post by messydesk » Sun Oct 10, 2021 1:33 am

RogerB wrote:
Sat Oct 09, 2021 7:37 pm
Not a reply; however, the definition seems inconsistent:

Buffed Reverse
Highly over polished and eroded dies.
(See -1883-O VAM-1C1)

Polishing and erosion are different things. "Buffed" implies polishing or use of abrasive, and has nothing to do with erosion and displacement of die steel. The on-line photos show primarily die erosion.

Anyone have thoughts?
I think the term is misapplied. If you were to look at the die when it produced the coins with this feature, there'd be a raised outline around a few of the design elements. I don't know how polishing could cause this. It would seem to me that this would occur after the die was polished and put into use, and would be a result of collapse of the field of the die, which is less work hardened than the devices and some small margin around them. There are some varieties where you see this become more pronounced in later die stages. I invite anyone with the means to reproduce this to do so and report back.
Welcome to the VAMWorld 2.0 discussion boards. R.I.P. old VAMWorld.

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messydesk
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Re: Questions about SSCD "Buffed Reverses" registry

Post by messydesk » Sun Oct 10, 2021 1:35 am

keilg1 wrote:
Sat Oct 09, 2021 11:55 am
Don't know if I can/should ask this here, but how are additions to SSDC registries woven in? I.e., I'd like to ask the new discovery coin to be included.

The VAM-81 is a new addition/variety (http://ec2-13-58-222-16.us-east-2.compu ... 0-O_VAM-81) to the 1880-O family of mistreated reverse dies that include the VAM-45A (http://ec2-13-58-222-16.us-east-2.compu ... -O_VAM-45A and the VAM-78 http://ec2-13-58-222-16.us-east-2.compu ... 0-O_VAM-78) that are kindred spirits to the rest of the registry.

Based on inclusion of 45A and 78, can the 81 become a valid type?

...
As far as I'm concerned, yes. The sunken channel around the devices is quite pronounced on VAM 81. @fogie or @alefzero, please do the needed.
Welcome to the VAMWorld 2.0 discussion boards. R.I.P. old VAMWorld.

fogie
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Re: Questions about SSCD "Buffed Reverses" registry

Post by fogie » Sun Oct 10, 2021 1:52 am

I will add them when I slow down this evening.

RogerB
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Re: Questions about SSCD "Buffed Reverses" registry

Post by RogerB » Sun Oct 10, 2021 3:02 am

messydesk wrote:
Sun Oct 10, 2021 1:33 am
RogerB wrote:
Sat Oct 09, 2021 7:37 pm
Not a reply; however, the definition seems inconsistent:

Buffed Reverse
Highly over polished and eroded dies.
(See -1883-O VAM-1C1)

Polishing and erosion are different things. "Buffed" implies polishing or use of abrasive, and has nothing to do with erosion and displacement of die steel. The on-line photos show primarily die erosion.

Anyone have thoughts?
I think the term is misapplied. If you were to look at the die when it produced the coins with this feature, there'd be a raised outline around a few of the design elements. I don't know how polishing could cause this. It would seem to me that this would occur after the die was polished and put into use, and would be a result of collapse of the field of the die, which is less work hardened than the devices and some small margin around them. There are some varieties where you see this become more pronounced in later die stages. I invite anyone with the means to reproduce this to do so and report back.
Excess pressure during polishing can produce ripples - similar to those seen on sand dunes, a "washboard" dirt road, etc. But this is very unusual.

fogie
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Re: Questions about SSCD "Buffed Reverses" registry

Post by fogie » Sun Oct 10, 2021 3:39 am

Then only reason they are not part of the set is that when I was ask to build the set - I was provided with a list of VAMs to include and they were not on said list. Things do get overlooked and to rectify the situation requires simply "asking". I will get to fixin it now! Thanks for pointing out these little gems to include!

fogie
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Re: Questions about SSCD "Buffed Reverses" registry

Post by fogie » Sun Oct 10, 2021 3:52 am

Done!

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lioncutter
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Re: Questions about SSCD "Buffed Reverses" registry

Post by lioncutter » Sun Oct 10, 2021 1:25 pm

The Buffed Reverses Set is (to me) a fascinating category in the VAM collecting world.
Thanks Fogie for taking care of this.
I may not be the best, but I do not know anyone better.

keilg1
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Re: Questions about SSCD "Buffed Reverses" registry

Post by keilg1 » Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:15 pm

Thanks again to all who have contributed to the discussion. I see my interest and confusion are echoed elsewhere...

Which leave a few of the questions still unanswered, but these will come in due time.

I appreciate the differences between die fatigue and 'overbuffed' dies - polishing lines, shallow fields, deep deep mirror prooflike LDS varieties that lack certain details, and more.

I happen to love the die fatigue - incorrect die preparation, massive trauma that happens when the littlest spot of compromise leads to massive flow changes and other nuanced bits.

The fact that the registry has obverse examples makes the 'reverse' part of the registry not completely accurate, so perhaps the name needs changing, too?

Is it possible to hear answers to, for example, if only the 7D flavor of the 1888-P variety counts or do earlier ones? If the other current exclusions can be included? Etc.

Thanks again for your expertise and guidance. I hope the diversion was enlightening to those who previously had a low or disinterest in the topic, and served a good purpose for those already hooked.

All the best,

Gary

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