1891-S VAM-3 Die question

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keilg1
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Location: Nottingham, UK

1891-S VAM-3 Die question

Post by keilg1 » Tue Sep 07, 2021 6:52 am

Graded NCG 50 so expected scratches and wear seen, but I can't tell which die this might be. The polish line that distinguishes die #1 from #2 doesn't seem to align with what I thought was PMD on mine, but is raised and not scratched into the surface (as I originally thought).

Interesting, too, that the doubled eyelid and partial alligator eye mentioned and that I see is very similar to that of the 1891-O VAM-12 picture that @lured_in_again posted back in 2018:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4999&p=43291&hilit=1891#p43291

Clearly the VAM-12 is a far date, from a different mint, but wow don't they look similar?

Any 91-S enthusiasts out there with ideas of mine?

First: near date:
GR1893Sv3 near date.jpg
GR1893Sv3 near date.jpg (129.8 KiB) Viewed 449 times

Next, doubled stars on left (but seen on all mentioned):
GR1893Sv3 2x stars.jpg
GR1893Sv3 2x stars.jpg (134.93 KiB) Viewed 449 times

Next, doubled eyelid and alligator eye:
GR1893Sv3 2x lid-aligator eye.jpg
GR1893Sv3 2x lid-aligator eye.jpg (160 KiB) Viewed 449 times

And on the reverse, the polish line on the left wing - much farther right than dies #1 and #2:
GR1893Sv3 polish line L wing rev.jpg
GR1893Sv3 polish line L wing rev.jpg (165.09 KiB) Viewed 449 times

Finally, the illusive die #3 mentions an overpolishing of the berry above the second L of DOLLAR - I'm not sure I see anything to mention apart from the A (and possibly M) of AMERICA might be slightly weak...
GR1893Sv3 L berry rev.jpg
GR1893Sv3 L berry rev.jpg (153.88 KiB) Viewed 449 times

I can get other pictures if it might help, but I hope these 5 explain my stopping point.

Thanks!

Gary
Gary Redfeather, PhD, RPh

https://www.linkedin.com/in/drgarykeil/

Click https://gjkeil2-82005.medium.com/our-lo ... 485d6cf0a5 to read the backstory of my surname change

blh74
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Re: 1891-S VAM-3 Die question

Post by blh74 » Wed Sep 08, 2021 3:27 am

On my V3 reverse, the line below the S is like your pictures. But it is confusing. Not like the page shows for die 2.

keilg1
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Location: Nottingham, UK

Re: 1891-S VAM-3 Die question

Post by keilg1 » Wed Sep 08, 2021 6:39 am

blh74 wrote:
Wed Sep 08, 2021 3:27 am
On my V3 reverse, the line below the S is like your pictures. But it is confusing. Not like the page shows for die 2.

Thanks. Tentative confirmation I'm not seeing the Trust scratch masquerading as a polish line. Wouldn't presume this to be die #3, but most likely not #1 or #2.

Does yours have the cool eye and lid PUPs - and have you compared them with the 91-O? Looking forward to hear if there is a potential link because they seem a bit too similar to me to be pure coincidence.

Thanks, again.

blh74
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Joined: Wed May 30, 2018 1:28 am

Re: 1891-S VAM-3 Die question

Post by blh74 » Thu Sep 09, 2021 7:05 am

keilg1 wrote:
Wed Sep 08, 2021 6:39 am
blh74 wrote:
Wed Sep 08, 2021 3:27 am
On my V3 reverse, the line below the S is like your pictures. But it is confusing. Not like the page shows for die 2.

Thanks. Tentative confirmation I'm not seeing the Trust scratch masquerading as a polish line. Wouldn't presume this to be die #3, but most likely not #1 or #2.

Does yours have the cool eye and lid PUPs - and have you compared them with the 91-O? Looking forward to hear if there is a potential link because they seem a bit too similar to me to be pure coincidence.

Thanks, again.
Yes mine has the PUPS. And I don`t have a 91 O to compare with.

keilg1
Posts: 147
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2019 4:36 pm
Location: Nottingham, UK

Re: 1891-S VAM-3 Die question

Post by keilg1 » Thu Sep 09, 2021 12:28 pm

blh74 wrote:
Thu Sep 09, 2021 7:05 am
keilg1 wrote:
Wed Sep 08, 2021 6:39 am
blh74 wrote:
Wed Sep 08, 2021 3:27 am
On my V3 reverse, the line below the S is like your pictures. But it is confusing. Not like the page shows for die 2.

Thanks. Tentative confirmation I'm not seeing the Trust scratch masquerading as a polish line. Wouldn't presume this to be die #3, but most likely not #1 or #2.

Does yours have the cool eye and lid PUPs - and have you compared them with the 91-O? Looking forward to hear if there is a potential link because they seem a bit too similar to me to be pure coincidence.

Thanks, again.
Yes mine has the PUPS. And I don`t have a 91 O to compare with.
Appreciate the input. Mystery will remain until others can help. If recommended by the admins, perhaps a dual shipment to Leroy would be appropriate. Happy to ship mine if you'd do the same for him to see both in hand.

Love to see if @lured_in_again wouldn't mind sharing the 91-O, too, to see if it really is a coincidence.

Gary

keilg1
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Location: Nottingham, UK

Re: 1891-S VAM-3 Die question

Post by keilg1 » Tue Nov 23, 2021 6:25 pm

Update: Confirmed by LVA as a Die #3.

Confirmation of die #3 from LVA Nov 2021.JPG
Confirmation of die #3 from LVA Nov 2021.JPG (21.99 KiB) Viewed 136 times

The webpage says "Die 3 should become a revision of Die 1." but I no longer think this true? Perhaps some die #3s lose the line as the die ages?

keilg1
Posts: 147
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Location: Nottingham, UK

Re: 1891-S VAM-3 Die question

Post by keilg1 » Sun Nov 28, 2021 8:35 pm

Thought this picture might help as it was what Leroy and I chatted about and he verified the placements:
1891-S VAM-3 3 different rev dies.jpg
1891-S VAM-3 3 different rev dies.jpg (66.46 KiB) Viewed 101 times

vamsterdam
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Re: 1891-S VAM-3 Die question

Post by vamsterdam » Mon Nov 29, 2021 3:24 pm

i have not studied vam 3 reverses enough to prove one way or the other but could any of these be different stages of the other with a different polishing line at trust? ie-a similar polishing scratch due to a repeating phenomena? could the original polishing line have been polished off, or worn off and another added?

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messydesk
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Re: 1891-S VAM-3 Die question

Post by messydesk » Mon Nov 29, 2021 4:36 pm

vamsterdam wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 3:24 pm
i have not studied vam 3 reverses enough to prove one way or the other but could any of these be different stages of the other with a different polishing line at trust? ie-a similar polishing scratch due to a repeating phenomena? could the original polishing line have been polished off, or worn off and another added?
Based on Leroy's pictures, die 2 could easily be a polished down die stage of die 1. I'd have to see all 3 in hand to have any more certainty than that, though.
Welcome to the VAMWorld 2.0 discussion boards. R.I.P. old VAMWorld.

keilg1
Posts: 147
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Location: Nottingham, UK

Re: 1891-S VAM-3 Die question

Post by keilg1 » Mon Nov 29, 2021 8:07 pm

messydesk wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 4:36 pm
vamsterdam wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 3:24 pm
i have not studied vam 3 reverses enough to prove one way or the other but could any of these be different stages of the other with a different polishing line at trust? ie-a similar polishing scratch due to a repeating phenomena? could the original polishing line have been polished off, or worn off and another added?
Based on Leroy's pictures, die 2 could easily be a polished down die stage of die 1. I'd have to see all 3 in hand to have any more certainty than that, though.
Agree. Just reporting what was relayed. As I understand them, PUPs are simply those - not defining qualities but helpful hints. Not helpful all the time, but that helps make this interesting, no?

blh74
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Re: 1891-S VAM-3 Die question

Post by blh74 » Mon Nov 29, 2021 9:32 pm

Here is my 1891 S. Vam 3, die 3.
A044 - 20211129_130447.jpg
A044 - 20211129_130447.jpg (179.09 KiB) Viewed 46 times
A045 - 20211129_131013.jpg
A045 - 20211129_131013.jpg (141.29 KiB) Viewed 46 times

vamsterdam
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Re: 1891-S VAM-3 Die question

Post by vamsterdam » Tue Nov 30, 2021 2:23 am

since i do not have any vam 2's to study, i will ask others to examine theirs to look for common or differing die markers, no matter how tiny they are. i have practiced this on 1879s, and 1878 8tf for years.

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