Have I met my match? (1921-P D1)

General discussion board about VAMs, but no buy/sell offers
DHalladay
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Joined: Wed May 30, 2018 4:38 pm

Have I met my match? (1921-P D1)

Post by DHalladay » Fri Aug 13, 2021 9:59 pm

Out of about 200 1921-P Morgans with D1 reverses that I've tried to attribute over the years, I've never failed (often thanks to the help of folks here!) to arrive at a VAM diagnosis -- other than coins that turned out to be new discoveries. I don't even have a VAM 1 in my 1921-P date set, because I've been able to attribute every D1 example so far.

Until today perhaps.

There are no scribbles in the usual areas on either side of the eagle's right leg, but there is a nice horizontal line across UTFs 1-2-3 and there is an even longer and stronger line across the upper abdomen. Both are significant PUPs in my opinion. Also significant is the 'spike' on the outside of the eagle's left leg above the talon, plus there are several nice polishing lines inside the left wing.

Thoughts? Can anyone help... or does it need to go to LVA?

42782151 scribbles1.jpg
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42782151 scribbles2.jpg
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42782151 leg spike.jpg
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42782151 left wing.jpg
42782151 left wing.jpg (264.95 KiB) Viewed 1300 times

Interesting bulge/gouge coming out of the hair curl across from the neck-jaw junction:
42782151 hair bulge.jpg
42782151 hair bulge.jpg (469.76 KiB) Viewed 1170 times
Last edited by DHalladay on Sun Aug 15, 2021 5:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
When in doubt... don't.

weth
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Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2018 6:44 pm

Re: Have I met my match? (1921-P D1)

Post by weth » Sat Aug 14, 2021 7:04 pm

Hey Dennis,

My only thought is - could this be a moderately late die stage of VAM 88A?

DHalladay wrote:
Fri Aug 13, 2021 9:59 pm
I don't even have a VAM 1 in my 1921-P date set, because I've been able to attribute every D1 example so far.


Heh - I have two, one ANACS attributed and the other VSS. Maybe I should take another look at them...

DHalladay
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Joined: Wed May 30, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Have I met my match? (1921-P D1)

Post by DHalladay » Sat Aug 14, 2021 7:23 pm

Hey Tom, thanks for taking a look!
I have a VSS 88A, but I can find none of the 'stuff' on it that is shown in my photos here.

The worst case scenario here isn't so bad... I'll be able to fill my empty VAM 1 slot at SSDC. :lol:
When in doubt... don't.

weth
Posts: 263
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2018 6:44 pm

Re: Have I met my match? (1921-P D1)

Post by weth » Sat Aug 14, 2021 11:32 pm

The 88A has that line by the leg:

Image


...but it's sharp. So that's why I was thinking it might be an LDS. It also has a break across the 3 TF like that.


BTW I'm trying to pin down one of the VAM 1's I have. It has some pretty strong doubling/tripling of especially the left stars, so I think it is a higher number VAM; VAM 114 seems like it might be it, but I'm not sure. Do you recognize these three die file lines by the neck?
weth_21P_D1_VSSVAM1.jpg
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weth_21P_D1_VSSVAM1_B.jpg
weth_21P_D1_VSSVAM1_B.jpg (40.36 KiB) Viewed 1206 times

DHalladay
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Re: Have I met my match? (1921-P D1)

Post by DHalladay » Sun Aug 15, 2021 2:29 pm

Tom: Those 3 lines sure look like VAM 21 (which was previously VAM 102).
When in doubt... don't.

weth
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Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2018 6:44 pm

Re: Have I met my match? (1921-P D1)

Post by weth » Sun Aug 15, 2021 4:43 pm

Indeed it does, Dennis - VAM 21 looks like a match for my example! Thank you!
My other VAM 1 turned out to be a VAM 1AC, so I guess I don't have any "plain" VAM 1 coins either...

DHalladay
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Re: Have I met my match? (1921-P D1)

Post by DHalladay » Sun Aug 15, 2021 6:09 pm

Tom:
There's just nothing on my coin that matches up with 88A, except for the single spike coming out of the left leg.

By the way... in looking at LVA's two plate images on the VAM 88A attribution page (I so wish there were more!) I found something very odd about my VSS-attributed 88A. It has obverse denticle wear lines like crazy:
1838438-109 denticle lines.jpg
1838438-109 denticle lines.jpg (342.67 KiB) Viewed 1167 times


But it does not have either of the polishing lines at leg:
1838438-109 no leg spike.jpg
1838438-109 no leg spike.jpg (406.43 KiB) Viewed 1167 times

My coin, by the way, is pretty obviously the same coin that Mitch photographed for the 6 small photos seen at the bottom of the 88A attribution page.
When in doubt... don't.

weth
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Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2018 6:44 pm

Re: Have I met my match? (1921-P D1)

Post by weth » Sun Aug 15, 2021 9:43 pm

Huh. This implies that the obverse denticle wear happened before the reverse leg polishing lines; you perhaps more properly have a VAM 88 LDS there, and not really the die stage LVA called VAM 88A.

DHalladay
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Re: Have I met my match? (1921-P D1)

Post by DHalladay » Sun Aug 15, 2021 9:59 pm

weth wrote:
Sun Aug 15, 2021 9:43 pm
Huh. This implies that the obverse denticle wear happened before the reverse leg polishing lines; you perhaps more properly have a VAM 88 LDS there, and not really the die stage LVA called VAM 88A.

One of the "joys" of dealing with 1921-P attributions is not knowing what the complete sequence is of the many PUP gouges, lines, etc. that may have occurred during the life of the die pair. LVA gives a VAM number to the first coin he sees from a new pair, but there's no telling where that coin falls – early, middle or late – in the sequence of all listable features that may ultimately be associated with that VAM.

Your LDS-88 theory sounds interesting! My coin has the doubled cap and lower hair, and slightly tripled left stars that makes up all of the official description for VAM 88.
When in doubt... don't.

DHalladay
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Joined: Wed May 30, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Have I met my match? (1921-P D1)

Post by DHalladay » Sun Aug 15, 2021 10:37 pm

Now I'm going to throw a huge monkey wrench into this discussion. Here is a photo of the scribbles on my VSS-attributed VAM 88A, which is obviously the same coin Mitch used to take the 6 small photos that appear at the bottom of the VAM 88A attribution page:
1838438-109 scribbles.jpg
1838438-109 scribbles.jpg (286.32 KiB) Viewed 1135 times

If you compare this photo to the scribbles shot at the bottom of the VAM 88 attribution page, the two look absolutely nothing alike.

Now what do we do?
When in doubt... don't.

weth
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Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2018 6:44 pm

Re: Have I met my match? (1921-P D1)

Post by weth » Sun Aug 15, 2021 10:40 pm

DHalladay wrote:
Sun Aug 15, 2021 9:59 pm
LVA gives a VAM number to the first coin he sees from a new pair, but there's no telling where that coin falls – early, middle or late – in the sequence of all listable features that may ultimately be associated with that VAM.
Precisely. And folks then send in single samples, out of order, and we end up getting unnecessary subdivisions and screwball suffixes (e.g. 3A1c?).

If a proper set of coins were sent in together, then perhaps the denticle thing would be 88A1 and with the leg thing would be 88A2. Or 88B. Whatever he thinks best.

Regardless, back to the original point of the thread - if the coin you originally posted about isn't somewhere in the 88 die chain, then I don't know what it might be.

weth
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Re: Have I met my match? (1921-P D1)

Post by weth » Sun Aug 15, 2021 10:45 pm

DHalladay wrote:
Sun Aug 15, 2021 10:37 pm
Now I'm going to throw a huge monkey wrench into this discussion. Here is a photo of the scribbles on my VSS-attributed VAM 88A, which is obviously the same coin Mitch used to take the 6 small photos that appear at the bottom of the VAM 88A attribution page:

1838438-109 scribbles.jpg


If you compare this photo to the scribbles shot at the bottom of the VAM 88 attribution page, the two look absolutely nothing alike.

Now what do we do?

It certainly wouldn't be the first time we've disassociated a die pair from that of its suffixed neighbor; VAM 20 and VAM 20A are known to be different die pairs, right? And now we know that the VAM 20 discovery coin matches VAM 89...


I can only do 21Ps for a few weeks at a time, and then I get the 21P dizzies and need a break.

weth
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Re: Have I met my match? (1921-P D1)

Post by weth » Sun Aug 15, 2021 10:49 pm

Wait - the reverse scribbles on your "88A" doesn't match those on my (ANACS attributed) 88A, which does have the leg gouges.

DHalladay
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Re: Have I met my match? (1921-P D1)

Post by DHalladay » Sun Aug 15, 2021 11:04 pm

weth wrote:
Sun Aug 15, 2021 10:49 pm
Wait - the reverse scribbles on your "88A" doesn't match those on my (ANACS attributed) 88A, which does have the leg gouges.

Excellent! (Insofar as we already had a mess, but now we have a mess that can be submitted to LVA. "Cleanup on Aisle 88 please!") :lol:
When in doubt... don't.

weth
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Re: Have I met my match? (1921-P D1)

Post by weth » Mon Aug 16, 2021 12:33 am

Hey Dennis,

The picture you posted of your "88A" sure looks a lot like this photo posted on the page for the "1BQ":

Image

weth
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Re: Have I met my match? (1921-P D1)

Post by weth » Mon Aug 16, 2021 12:40 am

So I guess I'm back to your 88A is really a 1BQ and your "what is it" is a LDS 88A.

DHalladay
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Re: Have I met my match? (1921-P D1)

Post by DHalladay » Mon Aug 16, 2021 12:51 am

weth wrote:
Mon Aug 16, 2021 12:33 am
Hey Dennis,

The picture you posted of your "88A" sure looks a lot like this photo posted on the page for the "1BQ":

Image

No wonder I said I could swear I've seen those scribbles before, I posted the silly photo of them for 1BQ!
Great work Detective Tom!

And I think I know what an explanation may be: LVA gave me a new discovery for 1BQ in 2019 (an MS63PL) but it is actually a very EDS 88A. It has the doubled cap and doubled hair described for VAM 88, and it has the die lines at left obverse denticles for VAM 88A – not to mention the identical scribbles on my VSS 88A – but there's no sign of the gouge 'spikes' coming out of the left leg.
When in doubt... don't.

weth
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Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2018 6:44 pm

Re: Have I met my match? (1921-P D1)

Post by weth » Mon Aug 16, 2021 1:01 am

I don't agree that the 1BQ is an EDS of 88A or related to the 88A; the scratches and scribbles on my 88A (which match both of the plate photos) don't match that of the 1BQ. What JR/VSS called an 88A is really a 1BQ.

DHalladay
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Re: Have I met my match? (1921-P D1)

Post by DHalladay » Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:07 am

But... that would mean he made a mistake. :o
When in doubt... don't.

weth
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Re: Have I met my match? (1921-P D1)

Post by weth » Mon Aug 16, 2021 3:22 am

Dennis, you of all people should know by now that the 21P series is a hall of mirrors, and that the only gospel is what LVA says. But even he is tricked, because he usually doesn't have the original reference examples to reexamine. JR and JB are both fine, fabulous, wonderful, knowledgeable assets to our numismatic community, and I have learned a lot from both of them. But I have at least five assorted ANACS and five assorted VSS 21P attributions that are just plain wrong. Most of the time, they didn't have actual examples of the coins to compare to, and are working off of grainy photos. Evil mimics abound. And sometimes what is a very commonly assumed thing turns out to be completely wrong...

When I was studying the 1883P series, I was going off of what had already been "established". I bought examples of 1883P VAM 1A that were attributed by both VSS and by ANACS, and they were clearly the same thing; both matched the photos that were well documented on VAMworld. When I had the opportunity to send some attributed VAM 1A examples for comparison with another pitted clashed variety, LVA said that they didn't look like they were actually VAM 1A. I was really confused. I later documented first VAM 39 and then the clashed VAM 39A stage. At some point I saw the 83P VAM 1A discovery coin up for sale. It's a match for VAM 39A. So what both VSS, ANACS, and VAMworld all called VAM 1A didn't match the VAM 1A discovery coin, which is now called VAM 49. Yes, there is a clashed die stage that shows a letter, and yes I could probably get a VAM 49A but I feel like I've flogged that horse hard enough already...

Anyway, my point is that it's all LVA's nomenclature, and we're all just thrashing around in it. My 88A matches LVA's plate photos, so it's an 88A, and yours doesn't so it isn't. Nanny-nanny boo boo!

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