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Can't quite place this 1904-O vam, new vam perhaps?

Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2021 1:01 am
by vamtiques
Up for viewing here is one I can't seem to accurately place, and looks prooflike on the reverse to me. It has a very tiny die scratch on the 2nd star to the left of the date, and a noticable die crack along um of unum down through the stars to the right. The pics of the reverse should help place this one hopefully.

The motto on the reverse has the die chips about we-trust, the mintmark looks centered but tilted left, and has a die crack centered on america, along with some doubling of some letters of dollar.

Re: Can't quite place this 1904-O vam, new vam perhaps?

Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2021 1:06 am
by vamtiques
And the whole coin...

Re: Can't quite place this 1904-O vam, new vam perhaps?

Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2021 1:38 am
by Tekkie1
Take a look at the VAM-30 family.

Re: Can't quite place this 1904-O vam, new vam perhaps?

Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2021 2:05 am
by vamtiques
I relooked at vam-30 and such; it has several characteristics that don't match, like no die crack in the hair cap, no very light die scratch on the chin, and no small die scratches opposite eagles beak on the wing, or opposite the arrow shafts on the leaf, per the pics provided. Now the die chips at we-trust are there, and the mintmark position seems right, but could this be another die system yet in the vam-30 system unlisted, or is this an EDS stage of vam-30?

Re: Can't quite place this 1904-O vam, new vam perhaps?

Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2021 2:41 am
by Tekkie1
Absolutely DO NOT rely on die cracks as these are not reliable markers. There could be different stages where cracks may show up, get worse or entirely disappear due to a die change in marriage.
Take this VAM for example, VAM-30 and VAM-30B.
It's the same thing, only different. :lol: :lol:

Re: Can't quite place this 1904-O vam, new vam perhaps?

Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2021 6:47 am
by Kurt28
Look at the VAM-21 die pair 1.

Re: Can't quite place this 1904-O vam, new vam perhaps?

Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2021 10:02 am
by vamtiques
Thanks guys, it indeed looks more like a vam-21, except I don't see the doubled 0 of the date, but everything else checks out for the obverse. Now the reverse has qualities of both dies :?: , and the pics of vam-30 show the die chips about the reverse motto but not on vam-21?

Now to tekkie1 point, I know I probably shouldn't rely on die cracks, but then one has the seeming contradiction of the 1921-PDS die crack attribution guide, where these die cracks seem to be like 'fingerprints' and find these 'fingerprints' which match the dollar coin in hand, then boom, instant vam-id'd. One would think you can do that to each and every date/mm vam. There are probably multiple exceptions though :D .

Re: Can't quite place this 1904-O vam, new vam perhaps?

Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2021 12:22 pm
by impairedsquirrel
Die cracks are indeed like fingerprints... for particular stages of particular die pairings, but not necessarily for particular VAMs.
"Multiple die pairs may exist" comes into play here, but also remember that every one of those die pairs listed on the 21 crack guide also likely have stages with no cracks at all. ;)
In short, cracks are great... as long as they have been recorded.

Re: Can't quite place this 1904-O vam, new vam perhaps?

Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2021 1:11 pm
by DHalladay
impairedsquirrel wrote:
Sat Jul 10, 2021 12:22 pm
Die cracks are indeed like fingerprints... for particular stages of particular die pairings, but not necessarily for particular VAMs. "Multiple die pairs may exist" comes into play here, but also remember that every one of those die pairs listed on the 21 crack guide also likely have stages with no cracks at all. ;)
Amen Mr. Squirrel!

Speaking from the 1921-P side of things, development of the Die Crack Break Guide was a godsend to attributing that date; much faster and easier than relying on scribbles, but only if the coin you have in hand isn't an EDS or PL coin that was made before die cracks began. In those cases, scribbles are all you have to work with... but at least in PL and EDS the scribbles are bolder and easier to see. :D

Re: Can't quite place this 1904-O vam, new vam perhaps?

Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2021 3:25 pm
by LateDateMorganGuy
I think Kurt got the V21 Die#1 correct. Just a LDS from what I can tell.

Re: Can't quite place this 1904-O vam, new vam perhaps?

Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2021 2:17 am
by vamtiques
Since it appears to be a LDS of vam-21, that could explain why some of the features of the webpage didn't match up with mine, other photos of the LDS may not have been observed by the original discoverer, therefore throwing me off a bit.