When striking pressure is too high

General discussion board about VAMs, but no buy/sell offers
User avatar
messydesk
Site Admin
Posts: 2848
Joined: Mon May 28, 2018 1:57 am

When striking pressure is too high

Post by messydesk » Thu Jun 24, 2021 4:37 pm

In this case, the term "striking" is to be taken with a grain of salt, but the pressure is a few hundred tons to much for this die. Watch this video and take a look at the accompanying pictures of the result.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CQRZc7vr6MH/
Welcome to the VAMWorld 2.0 discussion boards. R.I.P. old VAMWorld.

DHalladay
Posts: 2264
Joined: Wed May 30, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: When striking pressure is too high

Post by DHalladay » Thu Jun 24, 2021 4:56 pm

That was interesting. I was surprised there wasn't some serious noise from the metal that was being massively abused.
When in doubt... don't.

User avatar
Longstrider
Posts: 787
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2018 9:12 pm
Location: Mojave High Desert

Re: When striking pressure is too high

Post by Longstrider » Thu Jun 24, 2021 5:09 pm

Great Caesars Ghost! That is crazy. I really thought that guy was going to fry his fingers when he touched it. Wow! Thanks.🐍

User avatar
vampicker
Posts: 1432
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:48 pm
Location: Ohio

Re: When striking pressure is too high

Post by vampicker » Thu Jun 24, 2021 5:47 pm

Looks like the very definition of FUBAR. There's something to be said for not pissin' off a man with a coining press.
often the crusher of hopes and dreams

RogerRock
Posts: 483
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:40 am

Re: When striking pressure is too high

Post by RogerRock » Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:01 pm

Impressive ! Die split vertically several different locations. Pressure reached point of no return when planchet silver flows over side of die (Capped Die). Note safety protocol with safety shield. Thanks for sharing.
Stage 3 TERMINAL DIE STATE SILVER DOLLAR EXPLORER

User avatar
messydesk
Site Admin
Posts: 2848
Joined: Mon May 28, 2018 1:57 am

Re: When striking pressure is too high

Post by messydesk » Thu Jun 24, 2021 8:27 pm

According to the guy who did this, the die "popped" at about 250-300 tons.
Welcome to the VAMWorld 2.0 discussion boards. R.I.P. old VAMWorld.

fogie
Posts: 893
Joined: Thu May 31, 2018 9:45 pm
Location: Arizona

Re: When striking pressure is too high

Post by fogie » Thu Jun 24, 2021 8:50 pm

oops

User avatar
messydesk
Site Admin
Posts: 2848
Joined: Mon May 28, 2018 1:57 am

Re: When striking pressure is too high

Post by messydesk » Fri Jun 25, 2021 1:54 am

RogerRock wrote:
Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:01 pm
Impressive ! Die split vertically several different locations. Pressure reached point of no return when planchet silver flows over side of die (Capped Die). Note safety protocol with safety shield. Thanks for sharing.
You want to see a safety shield, you should see what they set up at the University of Illinois during their Engineering Open House when they demonstrate crushing cylinders of concrete. After 1300 - 1500 tons of compression, a 3' by 18" diameter cylinder explodes in front of a live studio audience.
Welcome to the VAMWorld 2.0 discussion boards. R.I.P. old VAMWorld.

RogerRock
Posts: 483
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:40 am

Re: When striking pressure is too high

Post by RogerRock » Fri Jun 25, 2021 2:55 am

messydesk wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 1:54 am
RogerRock wrote:
Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:01 pm
Impressive ! Die split vertically several different locations. Pressure reached point of no return when planchet silver flows over side of die (Capped Die). Note safety protocol with safety shield. Thanks for sharing.
You want to see a safety shield, you should see what they set up at the University of Illinois during their Engineering Open House when they demonstrate crushing cylinders of concrete. After 1300 - 1500 tons of compression, a 3' by 18" diameter cylinder explodes in front of a live studio audience.
That had to be some serious containment shield !!

On a more somber "concrete" note : Part of Champlain Towers 12 story Condo north of Miami Beach just collapsed with 99 people reported missing. This structure was built on concrete steel reinforced pillars.
Stage 3 TERMINAL DIE STATE SILVER DOLLAR EXPLORER

neals384
Posts: 31
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:00 pm

Re: When striking pressure is too high

Post by neals384 » Fri Jun 25, 2021 3:05 am

RogerRock wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 2:55 am

That had to be some serious containment shield !!

On a more somber "concrete" note : Part of Champlain Towers 12 story Condo north of Miami Beach just collapsed with 99 people reported missing. This structure was built on concrete steel reinforced pillars.
One engineer is being quoted as saying salty air can cause that sort of collapse. My money is on foundation built on sand.

RogerB
Posts: 615
Joined: Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:30 pm

Re: When striking pressure is too high

Post by RogerB » Tue Jun 29, 2021 5:10 pm

150 T/sq in was the max for silver dollar dies. Above that, as seen in Dec 1921, dies chattered, exploded, warped, etc.

The video clip shows a cylinder, not a properly shaped die, which is much wider below the die face. Also, hydraulic pressure transfers force differently than a toggle or drop press where there is an accompanying shock wave through the metal.

User avatar
Kurt28
Posts: 237
Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2018 4:00 pm

Re: When striking pressure is too high

Post by Kurt28 » Wed Jun 30, 2021 8:19 pm

messydesk wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 1:54 am
RogerRock wrote:
Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:01 pm
Impressive ! Die split vertically several different locations. Pressure reached point of no return when planchet silver flows over side of die (Capped Die). Note safety protocol with safety shield. Thanks for sharing.
You want to see a safety shield, you should see what they set up at the University of Illinois during their Engineering Open House when they demonstrate crushing cylinders of concrete. After 1300 - 1500 tons of compression, a 3' by 18" diameter cylinder explodes in front of a live studio audience.
As a student of Mechanical Engineering, University of Wisconsin, I recall seeing those immense crushing machines.

User avatar
LateDateMorganGuy
Posts: 718
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2018 2:11 am

Re: When striking pressure is too high

Post by LateDateMorganGuy » Wed Jun 30, 2021 10:15 pm

I also got to run experiments in college in the engineering lab busting concrete cylinders. As far as the Surfside condo collapse, I would suggest that you not listen to the so-called experts, who just want TV time. It will take years to figure out what happened. I say this as a structural engineer with 45 years experience. The one thing I have seen reported about this tragedy that I agree with is there will not be a single issue that caused it. There are always many issues that contributed to the collapse, none of which in and by itself would have caused it.

User avatar
messydesk
Site Admin
Posts: 2848
Joined: Mon May 28, 2018 1:57 am

Re: When striking pressure is too high

Post by messydesk » Thu Jul 01, 2021 1:01 am

LateDateMorganGuy wrote:
Wed Jun 30, 2021 10:15 pm
I also got to run experiments in college in the engineering lab busting concrete cylinders. As far as the Surfside condo collapse, I would suggest that you not listen to the so-called experts, who just want TV time. It will take years to figure out what happened. I say this as a structural engineer with 45 years experience. The one thing I have seen reported about this tragedy that I agree with is there will not be a single issue that caused it. There are always many issues that contributed to the collapse, none of which in and by itself would have caused it.
My daughter never got to blow up concrete in college, as she wasn't much involved with materials science and structural stuff. She's spending this summer simulating blowing up stars at Los Alamos.

I figured you'd weigh in on the condo collapse. I agree that unless a sinkhole is discovered below the rubble, the attempts at expert explanations are merely attempts to get 15 minutes of fame.
Welcome to the VAMWorld 2.0 discussion boards. R.I.P. old VAMWorld.

User avatar
LateDateMorganGuy
Posts: 718
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2018 2:11 am

Re: When striking pressure is too high

Post by LateDateMorganGuy » Thu Jul 01, 2021 1:17 am

This sink hole theory is just that, a theory. I could expand on my thoughts about that, but then I would be the one looking for 15 minutes of fame. Let's just say I don't buy that one.

I have reviewed the engineering report from 3 years ago. Nothing in that report indicates the impending doom that occurred, IMHO.

But let's leave this subject alone and just think about the massive death and torment being felt by the families and still hopefuls. Based on earthquake building collapses, there could still be survivors, but as we all know each day that goes by reduces that chance.

User avatar
vampicker
Posts: 1432
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:48 pm
Location: Ohio

Re: When striking pressure is too high

Post by vampicker » Thu Jul 01, 2021 1:05 pm

Thanks for some genuine perspective.
often the crusher of hopes and dreams

RogerB
Posts: 615
Joined: Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:30 pm

Re: When striking pressure is too high

Post by RogerB » Thu Jul 01, 2021 5:21 pm

RE: My daughter never got to blow up concrete in college, as she wasn't much involved with materials science and structural stuff. She's spending this summer simulating blowing up stars at Los Alamos.

Type I or Type II? I just read an interesting related article:
Caiazzo, I., Burdge, K.B., Fuller, J. et al. "A highly magnetized and rapidly rotating white dwarf as small as the Moon." Nature 595, 39–42 (2021). https://doi.org/10.1038/s41586-021-03615-y

Geseas
Posts: 262
Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:49 am
Location: West Michigan

Re: When striking pressure is too high

Post by Geseas » Thu Jul 01, 2021 6:24 pm

RogerB wrote:
Tue Jun 29, 2021 5:10 pm
150 T/sq in was the max for silver dollar dies. Above that, as seen in Dec 1921, dies chattered, exploded, warped, etc.

The video clip shows a cylinder, not a properly shaped die, which is much wider below the die face. Also, hydraulic pressure transfers force differently than a toggle or drop press where there is an
accompanying shock wave through the metal.


Is this (the highlighted) discussed further anywhere? I have not done a proper search yet. Thanks for any information.

RogerB
Posts: 615
Joined: Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:30 pm

Re: When striking pressure is too high

Post by RogerB » Thu Jul 01, 2021 8:25 pm

First, check the CD of "From Mine to Mint." Then an internet search for academic articles on impact shock in austenitic steel, crystal boundary deformation in hardened/tempered machine steels. The alloy of US Mint dies was not consistent so one batch might produce great, long lasting dies and the next would deform or crack during hardening.

A toggle press or similar device, produces a very quick, almost instantaneous deformation in both coin planchet and die. Planchet distortion ("metal flow") is largely radial, but die distortion is simultaneously radial and axial. The application of force produces a shock wave that carries energy and disrupts the crystals and alloy boundaries. This creates superficial and deep micro cracks that expand with use at overpressures. Use of undersized dies in a toggle press at excess pressure can result in crumbling or explosive cracking as reported in 1921.

A hydraulic press, like the one shown in the video, can produce identical force; however, it is applied over a much longer time. This allows the metal to distort and flow with less immediate rupture of crystals, or disturbance in component boundaries. Energy is dissipated throughout the die mass rather than propagating as a shock wave. This is why the video shows "flowing" metal instead of fractured pieces. The vertical split visible would likely not reach the surface of a real coinage die (about 2 or 3 inches diameter with an angled shoulder between die base and the smaller face) until well after the die face had been destroyed.
Last edited by RogerB on Fri Jul 02, 2021 1:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
messydesk
Site Admin
Posts: 2848
Joined: Mon May 28, 2018 1:57 am

Re: When striking pressure is too high

Post by messydesk » Thu Jul 01, 2021 11:49 pm

RogerB wrote:
Thu Jul 01, 2021 5:21 pm
RE: My daughter never got to blow up concrete in college, as she wasn't much involved with materials science and structural stuff. She's spending this summer simulating blowing up stars at Los Alamos.

Type I or Type II? I just read an interesting related article:
Caiazzo, I., Burdge, K.B., Fuller, J. et al. "A highly magnetized and rapidly rotating white dwarf as small as the Moon." Nature 595, 39–42 (2021). https://doi.org/10.1038/s41586-021-03615-y
Makes me want to ask her if the stars are wearing chain mail.
Welcome to the VAMWorld 2.0 discussion boards. R.I.P. old VAMWorld.

Post Reply