1900 p.... VAM-Misstrike- Error- What is it?

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SilverToken
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1900 p.... VAM-Misstrike- Error- What is it?

Post by SilverToken » Sun May 16, 2021 5:10 pm

I made a recent purchase of a 1900 P Morgan Silver Dollar.
I was drawn to the coin from the over-stamped field to the left of Liberty's face. The die has left a shiny, deeper field around all 7 left stars and along Liberty's face from her lips to the lower tip of her neck, and along the denticles. The rest of the strike is correct, level and as expected. It is not a clash, but how the die was created. It definitely is not a die crack. I find no doubling anywhere on the coin.
I have researched my VAM books, VAMWorld 2.0 and have not found a similar strike.
I would grade at a MS-60 Uncirculated, but it may be higher, I always tend to be safe and under-grade. Coin has no wear, hasn't been cleaned, talons and feathers are great. I paid $60 which is inline with PCGS, but a little high compared to NGC, but I felt the curiosity was worth it.
So what do you think the error in the strike is? What would you classify it as? Send your opinions
Attachments
1900 p obverse.jpg
1900 p obverse.jpg (362.17 KiB) Viewed 3899 times
1900 p reverse.jpg
1900 p reverse.jpg (406.82 KiB) Viewed 3899 times

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impairedsquirrel
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Re: 1900 p.... VAM-Misstrike- Error- What is it?

Post by impairedsquirrel » Sun May 16, 2021 11:27 pm

Stained.
I go totally NUTS for WOW! VAMs!! Or is that from WOW! VAMs?

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SilverToken
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Re: 1900 p.... VAM-Misstrike- Error- What is it?

Post by SilverToken » Mon May 17, 2021 1:19 am

It is actually pressed deeper around the stars, and the edges of that die ridge created have tarnished.
The field in the area between Liberty's Face and the stars is coarser than the field behind her head.
When it's no longer fun, I think I'm done!

Brabjohn
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Re: 1900 p.... VAM-Misstrike- Error- What is it?

Post by Brabjohn » Mon May 17, 2021 2:11 am

Environmental damage

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jrfaust
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Re: 1900 p.... VAM-Misstrike- Error- What is it?

Post by jrfaust » Mon May 17, 2021 1:40 pm

Looks like a Near Date for sure. :D If Vamming it I'd start there......
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PacificWR
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Re: 1900 p.... VAM-Misstrike- Error- What is it?

Post by PacificWR » Mon May 17, 2021 9:38 pm

SilverToken wrote:
Sun May 16, 2021 5:10 pm
I made a recent purchase of a 1900 P Morgan Silver Dollar.
I was drawn to the coin from the over-stamped field to the left of Liberty's face. The die has left a shiny, deeper field around all 7 left stars and along Liberty's face from her lips to the lower tip of her neck, and along the denticles. The rest of the strike is correct, level and as expected. It is not a clash, but how the die was created. It definitely is not a die crack. I find no doubling anywhere on the coin.
You might be on to something here. Can you check the field and design and look for any signs of rust/die stress on the obverse. I have an 1889-P VAM-23B (un-clashed) EDS with similar markings around the 6th, 7th left stars, the E, data stop, P and L. On my un-clashed 1889-P VAM-23B EDS the marking are more enhanced than on your coin.

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PacificWR
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Re: 1900 p.... VAM-Misstrike- Error- What is it?

Post by PacificWR » Mon May 17, 2021 10:05 pm

Close-up photos of the stars and along Liberty's face from her lips to the lower tip of her neck, and along the denticles. would be a big help.

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SilverToken
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Re: 1900 p.... VAM-Misstrike- Error- What is it?

Post by SilverToken » Mon May 17, 2021 11:51 pm

I do not find any stress (buckle) evidence of an EDS. There is a very small Die crack on the upper letters of UNITED on the reverse. I do not see any pitting or evidence of a rust.
I am attaching a close up of the impression in question... still trying to get my photo skills up to par.. coins are tough!
It is clearly an intentional machine mark around the stars, it is way too consistent. Note the raised area is a rougher texture as well.
Hope this helps
Attachments
1900p 2.jpg
1900p 2.jpg (138.85 KiB) Viewed 3741 times
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impairedsquirrel
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Re: 1900 p.... VAM-Misstrike- Error- What is it?

Post by impairedsquirrel » Tue May 18, 2021 12:20 am

Ok, the last pic looks like there is a difference in depth, but that is often an optical illusion. If it actually does have depth I'd say glue or some other gunky goo... Poke it with a stick. What ever this is it is on the coin, not in the coin. I'd bet my nuts on it.
Last edited by impairedsquirrel on Tue May 18, 2021 12:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
I go totally NUTS for WOW! VAMs!! Or is that from WOW! VAMs?

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impairedsquirrel
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Re: 1900 p.... VAM-Misstrike- Error- What is it?

Post by impairedsquirrel » Tue May 18, 2021 12:22 am

Just took a better look at that photo. I'm going all in on glue now.
I go totally NUTS for WOW! VAMs!! Or is that from WOW! VAMs?

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PacificWR
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Re: 1900 p.... VAM-Misstrike- Error- What is it?

Post by PacificWR » Tue May 18, 2021 12:30 am

SilverToken wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 11:51 pm
I do not find any stress (buckle) evidence of an EDS. There is a very small Die crack on the upper letters of UNITED on the reverse. I do not see any pitting or evidence of a rust.
I am attaching a close up of the impression in question... still trying to get my photo skills up to par.. coins are tough!
It is clearly an intentional machine mark around the stars, it is way too consistent. Note the raised area is a rougher texture as well.
Hope this helps
Die pitting or rust (unless it is heavy) can be hard to see. You need to have the right lighting. Do you have the photo equipment to get any closer? I will add a photo of my 1889-P VAM-23B (un-clashed EDS) in a bit that you could use as a guide.

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SilverToken
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Re: 1900 p.... VAM-Misstrike- Error- What is it?

Post by SilverToken » Tue May 18, 2021 12:33 am

It's not glue, it's silver, you lost your nuts!
When it's no longer fun, I think I'm done!

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Re: 1900 p.... VAM-Misstrike- Error- What is it?

Post by fogie » Tue May 18, 2021 1:16 am

I LIKE it! Looks like a new var. Of die fatigue. Hope to see it 4 real someday.

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PacificWR
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Re: 1900 p.... VAM-Misstrike- Error- What is it?

Post by PacificWR » Tue May 18, 2021 1:54 am

*************************** Click the photo to view at full resolution. *********************************************
Image Image
1889 P VAM 23B Die Stage 2.


The two photos above are of my 1889-P VAM-23B un-clashed EDS. To view the next die stage click on the blue 1889-P VAM 23B link. Can you take some photos like the two examples above?

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SilverToken
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Re: 1900 p.... VAM-Misstrike- Error- What is it?

Post by SilverToken » Wed May 19, 2021 1:21 pm

PacificWR- Thanks so much. That flat, uniform pattern between the field and the stars/face is exactly what I have on my 1900p. I did notice that beneath the date seems to be a stippling, maybe die-pitting/rust? I am attaching another picture. I have come to the realization that I need to spend more time and invest more on the imaging and cataloging of my collection. Please share what you use for the extreme close ups and any lighting tricks would be great too.
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1900pvam.jpeg
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keilg1
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Re: 1900 p.... VAM-Misstrike- Error- What is it?

Post by keilg1 » Wed May 19, 2021 4:49 pm

Looking forward to watching this mystery unfold.

I'm not an expert but I've seen many a 'buffed die' coin and have a few in hand but none of them show field depressions that don't follow the contour of the raised portion.

See the 80-P VAM-35A; 80-O VAM-45A; 81-O VAM-16; 89-P VAM-23B; 02-O VAM-28A; and many more found in the "buffed registry" in SSDC.

To see perfectly circular patterning around a pointed star looks to be man made, but not because of something done to the die - but to the coin after minting.

Liquid evaporation from something in the field, tilted at the right angle to only get the lower part of the coin, but not to any of the reliefs (stars, chin, neck)?

Like I said, I'm not an expert but I am interested in a good mystery.

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impairedsquirrel
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Re: 1900 p.... VAM-Misstrike- Error- What is it?

Post by impairedsquirrel » Wed May 19, 2021 11:35 pm

Most glues are translucent, so they appear to be silver because we can see what's under them. I (and many others) have been fooled a time or two by the "dang it, it's silver!" reaction.
It's glue (or something), my nuts are safe.
Soak it in acetone and poke it with a stick...
I go totally NUTS for WOW! VAMs!! Or is that from WOW! VAMs?

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PacificWR
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Re: 1900 p.... VAM-Misstrike- Error- What is it?

Post by PacificWR » Thu May 20, 2021 4:24 am

SilverToken wrote:
Wed May 19, 2021 1:21 pm
PacificWR- Thanks so much. That flat, uniform pattern between the field and the stars/face is exactly what I have on my 1900p. I did notice that beneath the date seems to be a stippling, maybe die-pitting/rust? I am attaching another picture. I have come to the realization that I need to spend more time and invest more on the imaging and cataloging of my collection. Please share what you use for the extreme close ups and any lighting tricks would be great too.
I will PM you the info on photo equipment. It will take me a bit to get the info together.

On your coin it going to be hard to tell without closeup photos. If we go back to my 1889-P VAM-23B (Un-clashed VEDS) I have just started the process of taking high resolution photos to see if there is any die stress or rust still visible from the 1889-P VAM-23A severe clashing events. At first glance, it appears the mint did a real good job polishing the obverse die (on the VAM-23B un-clashed VEDS). However, since I already know that the next die state (of VAM-23B un-clashed ) the die stress/rust reappears and that one of the first places it reappears is right where the black marks are. So in short, it opens the door where there are many unanswered questions and one of them deals with the extensive die polishing that was done. To get an idea of what I am talking about go to the 1889-P VAM-23B page and scroll down to any of the high resolution photos of the obverse.

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Re: 1900 p.... VAM-Misstrike- Error- What is it?

Post by keilg1 » Fri May 21, 2021 11:57 am

Not to belabor this point, but I finally found a picture of what I was hunting before... Besides, I received a minor in chemistry back in the late 1980s that I've been itching to bring back to life somehow.

Here's an example of what can happen naturally when a coin is exposed to certain elements that can alter the surface very sneakily, but with expected patterning:
1883 toning obv GR.JPG
1883 toning obv GR.JPG (116.2 KiB) Viewed 3450 times
This is toning, yes, because toning is a variation of what we're having fun with: things around or touching the coins will leave outlines of their activities (think CSI). These can be circular around stars, but commonly aren't as they follow the contours of the relief. They can be smooth - like around the digits of the date and the neck, too...

This coin happens to have discoloration along the denticles and half way across the stars, versus yours that has discoloration half way across the stars but from the field side?

Toning/patina commonly only reside on the most superficial parts of the surface, i.e., not etching or eroding into the metal very deeply, but certain chemicals can do so - creating deeper areas of the fields than is natural.

The darker areas near to the stars and neck/chin might represent where more of the chemical sat (concentrating its effect) or allowing it to work its magic longer?

I don't see how polishing or treating the die's flat sections (i.e., that make up the fields of the coin) would be able to create changes in the depth in circular ways around those stars...

I don't know but I bet one of the certification agencies would be willing to take your money and tell you their view (as they are all too willing to do).

Happy hunting for more varieties and for an eventual answer to your question. Can't wait to learn what I can from this.

Thanks,

Gary

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SilverToken
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Re: 1900 p.... VAM-Misstrike- Error- What is it?

Post by SilverToken » Fri May 21, 2021 2:20 pm

To All:

I believe the plan forward will be to get it professionally graded .... So which agency is the "choice" for VAM's and curiosities?

NGC-PCGS-ANACS????
When it's no longer fun, I think I'm done!

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