Oh those 1887-S denticle gouges... can't get enough?

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keilg1
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Oh those 1887-S denticle gouges... can't get enough?

Post by keilg1 » Wed May 12, 2021 11:10 am

Had the pleasure of finding what turned out to be the VAM-20 of the series. Not that these float a lot of the VAMWorld's boat, but I'm a bit fascinated by what the San Fran mint folks were doing to their dies in the other mid-80s (I know what I was doing in Wyoming in the mid-1980s but that is a different story).

Die filing, acid treatments, over dates, repunched mint marks, and more... like gouging/scratching in the denticles.

Secured me a VAM-4 the other day which prompted me to look at others that I have and I believe I've found another oddball.

This one is a far date (or pretty close to a far date) with the only match a potential VAM-8:
GR 1887-S far date.jpg
GR 1887-S far date.jpg (168.93 KiB) Viewed 2531 times
Has a slightly left mintmark that I can't quite get in focus but don't believe it to be a typical S/S like my VAM-2 I've had for years, and it certainly doesn't match the S/S versions of VAM-14 or 16, but there is something in the upper loop that looks more like a blob (sorry, the picture doesn't show it well, but it's the mm placement that is more important):
GR 1887-S mm placement.jpg
GR 1887-S mm placement.jpg (194.14 KiB) Viewed 2531 times
Easier to compare if the mm placements are overlaid:
87S V8 mm overlay.JPG
87S V8 mm overlay.JPG (75.51 KiB) Viewed 2531 times
Key are the two gouges that don't align with the others with similar ones around RIB_S:
GR 87S dent die gouge comparison.JPG
GR 87S dent die gouge comparison.JPG (195.97 KiB) Viewed 2531 times
So, as I see it, I have a far date, S set slightly left with die gouges that don't match others described. Thought it might be a LDS VAM-8 but the mm doesn't match up, and doesn't apparently look to be a typical S/S.

Any thoughts from more trained eyes on this?

Interesting that @RonH270 has said my DC might be a LDS of 'virgin' stages that lack the denticle gouges and the lovely scratch extending off the "I" (of PLURIBUS). Ron, I'll try and get my DC to Leroy with the virgin ones if it might help to determine a VAM-20 (virgin) vs VAM-20A (LDS) differentiation?

That is, if there's an interest beyond mine!

Thanks,

Gary
Gary Redfeather, PhD, RPh

https://www.linkedin.com/in/drgarykeil/

Click https://gjkeil2-82005.medium.com/our-lo ... 485d6cf0a5 to read the backstory of my surname change

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vampicker
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Re: Oh those 1887-S denticle gouges... can't get enough?

Post by vampicker » Wed May 12, 2021 11:59 am

Think you've found an unlisted stage of one of the VAM 8 marriages, an evil mimic of the VAM 19A. I've seen it before, but was never able to get enough of the puzzle pieces together at the same time to have anyone send a coherent group of related pieces to Leroy. This obverse exists with no gouges, a gouge just above the R and the two you have on the present example,. If you have access to Alan Scott's excellent work, this is his Die Pair 19
often the crusher of hopes and dreams

keilg1
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Re: Oh those 1887-S denticle gouges... can't get enough?

Post by keilg1 » Wed May 12, 2021 12:32 pm

Thanks, @vampicker, for the thoughts.

Thought there might be a relation to VAM-8 based on date placement, but wondered how far 'left' a mm needs to be to be considered 'shifted left.' Seen all too many listing that are supposedly left but not any farther than the one I have in hand.

Definitely the scratches/gouges don't start at the same levels of the 19A or the 12...

All has me scratching my head.

I do not have access to Alan's work but would love to see it. Where could I find it?

Very appreciative of your help.

Gary

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vampicker
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Re: Oh those 1887-S denticle gouges... can't get enough?

Post by vampicker » Wed May 12, 2021 1:23 pm

Can't speak for him. Maybe you could drop him a PM and ask for a draft of the 87-S die study
often the crusher of hopes and dreams

keilg1
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Re: Oh those 1887-S denticle gouges... can't get enough?

Post by keilg1 » Wed May 12, 2021 6:05 pm

Thanks again.

One last question: what is Alan's username so I can send him a PM?

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vampicker
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Re: Oh those 1887-S denticle gouges... can't get enough?

Post by vampicker » Wed May 12, 2021 8:08 pm

@LateDateMorganGuy
often the crusher of hopes and dreams

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LateDateMorganGuy
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Re: Oh those 1887-S denticle gouges... can't get enough?

Post by LateDateMorganGuy » Wed May 12, 2021 9:19 pm

Thanks for the compliment JR, but at this time, I am not able to share my work. Not out of spite, selfisness or anything. But there could be copyright issues which I am not willing to even remotely come close to violating at this time. Hope everyone understands.

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vampicker
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Re: Oh those 1887-S denticle gouges... can't get enough?

Post by vampicker » Wed May 12, 2021 9:23 pm

Thanks Alan. I really should have asked you first before posting a reference to your ongoing work. Sorry to have put you in this spot.
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LateDateMorganGuy
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Re: Oh those 1887-S denticle gouges... can't get enough?

Post by LateDateMorganGuy » Wed May 12, 2021 10:13 pm

It's not a problem JR. Just wish I had the forethought before I started the work to see forward clearly, so the onus of not being able to share is on me.

keilg1
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Re: Oh those 1887-S denticle gouges... can't get enough?

Post by keilg1 » Thu May 13, 2021 6:18 am

LateDateMorganGuy wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 10:13 pm
It's not a problem JR. Just wish I had the forethought before I started the work to see forward clearly, so the onus of not being able to share is on me.
Thanks, Alan, and completely understand. I'm in the midst of writing a book on "PTGO" (post-traumatic growth order) - i.e., the other option besides PTSD when trauma hits our lives - and I shared some advance text with others and that is creating a bit of a trauma... Stress and trauma are often bedmates and people who are stressed ain't necessarily thinking clearly...

Would simply love to hear your thoughts on this instead of seeing your work. Have you seen the two gouges/scratches I see on my coin? Is it possibly a VAM-8 variant even if the mm is shifted left (if, indeed, it is) and might be and S/S? Probably need to send it off to John B...

Warmly and wishing you the best of luck with your work.

Gary

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LateDateMorganGuy
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Re: Oh those 1887-S denticle gouges... can't get enough?

Post by LateDateMorganGuy » Thu May 13, 2021 1:50 pm

As things stand right now, I agree with JR that you have a member of the VAM-8 family.

The obverse die of your coin was married to two different reverses. The first use (marriage) of the obverse die did not have the gouges. They showed up on the second reverse die marriage or in between marriages. Hard to tell. The gouges do start to wear down and become harder to see in the second die marriage from die wear. Then the dies were removed from the press and polished and remarried. This removed the obverse die gouges completely and created what some would call "beveled denticles".

Hope that helps.

keilg1
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Re: Oh those 1887-S denticle gouges... can't get enough?

Post by keilg1 » Fri May 14, 2021 8:06 am

Brilliant and a huge thanks, Alan.

Might send this off with others I have in the hopper as 'interesting' ones.

Gary

keilg1
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NEW 1887-S VAM-8A DC

Post by keilg1 » Sat Oct 02, 2021 2:32 pm

First, a huge thanks to @LateDateMorganGuy and @vampicker for the early insight and guidance. I'll post this here for others to see the evolution and to compare those denticle gouges that I'm beginning to like (at least more than I used to).

Submitted this and a few others to LVA and he has confirmed this to be a new 8 variety.

His take:
1887-S V8A LVA descriptions.JPG
1887-S V8A LVA descriptions.JPG (36.62 KiB) Viewed 570 times

And his only picture back:
1887-S V8A LVA pup RI scratches.JPG
1887-S V8A LVA pup RI scratches.JPG (221.01 KiB) Viewed 570 times

Far date, undescribed scratches on obverse (similar but different to those found on very near (VAM-12) or normal (VAM-19 or 20) dies), mm within tolerance of 'normal' but shifted slightly leftward from the VAM-8.

Thanks again for your help, gents. @PacificWR, hate to bother you again as the go-to guy, but might you help here, too?

Discovery shared (as was the 1886-1P and another one I'll post soon) between me (Gary Redfeather) and my father (Gary Keil).
Gary Redfeather, PhD, RPh

https://www.linkedin.com/in/drgarykeil/

Click https://gjkeil2-82005.medium.com/our-lo ... 485d6cf0a5 to read the backstory of my surname change

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PacificWR
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Re: Oh those 1887-S denticle gouges... can't get enough?

Post by PacificWR » Sat Oct 02, 2021 5:15 pm

Congrats on your new DC. I'll setup the new VAM page.

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PacificWR
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Re: Oh those 1887-S denticle gouges... can't get enough?

Post by PacificWR » Tue Oct 05, 2021 1:32 am

The new VAM-8A page is all setup.

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