New Member with a Possible New VAM - 1922-P Peace Dollar - Extra Olive Branch?

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Stlcoin
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New Member with a Possible New VAM - 1922-P Peace Dollar - Extra Olive Branch?

Post by Stlcoin » Fri Apr 02, 2021 3:40 pm

Hi All - New Member here with a Possible New VAM - 1922-P Peace Dollar - Extra Olive Branch?

My question specifically is on 2 - 1922-P BU Peace Dollars that I just
pulled from a roll that has been in my safe @ 40yrs now. I have extensively
researched all VAMs for the 22P and these 2 do not appear on the list,
better yet, I believe one is an EDS & the other a LDS Variety. My specimens
both have a horizontal bar of substrate that looks like an "Extra Olive
Branch", both are exactly in the same location & type although the EDS
variant is @ 1mm shorter. Both "Extra Olive Branch" run to the ray that
intersects the "O" in Dollar. Both specimens are also the B2 Variety.

Below is the LDS example, Thoughts & Input are appreciated. TY - Jim
DSC09520.JPG
22-P VAM Detail 3
DSC09520.JPG (173.87 KiB) Viewed 3180 times
Attachments
DSC09524.JPG
22-P Obverse
DSC09524.JPG (131.17 KiB) Viewed 3180 times
DSC09523.JPG
22-P Reverse
DSC09523.JPG (116.87 KiB) Viewed 3180 times
DSC09522.JPG
22-P VAM Detail 1
DSC09522.JPG (128.53 KiB) Viewed 3180 times
DSC09521.JPG
22-P VAM Detail 2
DSC09521.JPG (205.51 KiB) Viewed 3180 times

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...kenny
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Re: New Member with a Possible New VAM - 1922-P Peace Dollar - Extra Olive Branch?

Post by ...kenny » Fri Apr 02, 2021 3:43 pm

Hi! and Welcome. Your 'branch' is a clash result from obverse die I believe...kenny

I'm not strong on the 'Darkside" of VAMs, but I like that Miss Liberty's hair looks broken...kenny
Of all the things I've lost, I miss my.........Ahh........Uhmm........something, something, something..... :lol: :lol: :lol:

Stlcoin
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Re: New Member with a Possible New VAM - 1922-P Peace Dollar - Extra Olive Branch?

Post by Stlcoin » Fri Apr 02, 2021 3:58 pm

Here are the pictures of the 2nd Specimen which I believe to possibly be a EDS type. You will note between both specimens that the EDS version here also has 2 Horizontal "pins" above the Extra Branch, they also run under both intersecting rays. Again, thoughts & input are appreciated. - Jim
Attachments
DSC09529.JPG
22-P Peace Dollar VAM - Extra Branch - EDS - OBV
DSC09529.JPG (167.75 KiB) Viewed 3221 times
DSC09528.JPG
22-P Peace Dollar VAM - Extra Branch - EDS - REV
DSC09528.JPG (139.11 KiB) Viewed 3221 times
DSC09527.JPG
22-P Peace Dollar VAM - Extra Branch - EDS - Detail 1
DSC09527.JPG (131.67 KiB) Viewed 3221 times
DSC09526.JPG
22-P Peace Dollar VAM - Extra Branch - EDS - Detail 2
DSC09526.JPG (196.55 KiB) Viewed 3221 times
DSC09525.JPG
22-P Peace Dollar VAM - Extra Branch - EDS - Detail 3
DSC09525.JPG (172.03 KiB) Viewed 3221 times

Stlcoin
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Re: New Member with a Possible New VAM - 1922-P Peace Dollar - Extra Olive Branch?

Post by Stlcoin » Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:02 pm

...kenny wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 3:43 pm
Hi! and Welcome. Your 'branch' is a clash result from obverse die I believe...kenny

I'm not strong on the 'Darkside" of VAMs, but I like that Miss Liberty's hair looks broken...kenny

Thanks Kenny - I too thought of Clashing on 1st look. Both specimens have raised metal instead of incuse as a clash would indicate. The bars/branches are raised and at an oblique angle, both are "under" the vertical rays. I looked at both under my microscope as well. Sorry the pictures don't really reflect the luster either, they are very bright with the lightest gold toning.

Stlcoin
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Re: New Member with a Possible New VAM - 1922-P Peace Dollar - Extra Olive Branch?

Post by Stlcoin » Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:12 pm

I also have an extensive collection of Peace Dollars to include a @ 65% complete Date & Mint Mark set of DCR/VCR's <Spiked Shoulder on Eagle from Obverse Clashed Reverses> I currently own the 1921P - 22P - 22S - 23P - 23D - 23S - 24S - 25S - 26D - 26S - 28S - 34S - 35P & 35S. 14 Down, 10 to go...Been working on it for over 3 Decades! Will post pictures soon as a new thread.

RogerB
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Re: New Member with a Possible New VAM - 1922-P Peace Dollar - Extra Olive Branch?

Post by RogerB » Fri Apr 02, 2021 6:23 pm

Interesting. Could both coins be shown with identical lighting and orientation?

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...kenny
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Re: New Member with a Possible New VAM - 1922-P Peace Dollar - Extra Olive Branch?

Post by ...kenny » Fri Apr 02, 2021 8:14 pm

A clash would be as a 'negative' of the die. The dies clash and transfer image to the opposite die. Have you examined the PEACE dollar over lay for what that may be?
http://ec2-13-58-222-16.us-east-2.compu ... ki/Overlay

Trust me, I wouldn't steer you wrong... :lol:
Of all the things I've lost, I miss my.........Ahh........Uhmm........something, something, something..... :lol: :lol: :lol:

colwillys
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Re: New Member with a Possible New VAM - 1922-P Peace Dollar - Extra Olive Branch?

Post by colwillys » Fri Apr 02, 2021 10:26 pm

Check the listing of the collar clash 1922-P

RogerRock
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Re: New Member with a Possible New VAM - 1922-P Peace Dollar - Extra Olive Branch?

Post by RogerRock » Sat Apr 03, 2021 12:11 am

colwillys wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 10:26 pm
Check the listing of the collar clash 1922-P
Collar clashes occur when hammer die is vertically misaligned (tilted) and contacts the top edge of the collar die. The collar die is notched at regular intervals in order to form reeded edge. A collar clash transfers the notched edge impression onto the hammer die's rim edge. Repeated collar clashes will cause a "rim break" (see 1922 D VAM 16B Reverse which illustrates strong collar clash with adjacent rim break).

Collar clash visible on your EDS 1922 reverse rim edge below PEACE and first two mountains.
Stage 3 TERMINAL DIE STATE SILVER DOLLAR EXPLORER

Stlcoin
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Re: New Member with a Possible New VAM - 1922-P Peace Dollar - Extra Olive Branch?

Post by Stlcoin » Sat Apr 03, 2021 6:41 am

...kenny wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 8:14 pm
A clash would be as a 'negative' of the die. The dies clash and transfer image to the opposite die. Have you examined the PEACE dollar over lay for what that may be?
http://ec2-13-58-222-16.us-east-2.compu ... ki/Overlay

Trust me, I wouldn't steer you wrong... :lol:
Kenny - Yes I did check the overlay. There are no Horizontal details from the Obverse that could cause a similar clash on the Reverse. Also the rays that intersect are both above & below the height of both rays as what you would normally see of a DCR, I would expect if clashed, both rays would be below the "Extra Olive Branch".

Stlcoin
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Re: New Member with a Possible New VAM - 1922-P Peace Dollar - Extra Olive Branch?

Post by Stlcoin » Sat Apr 03, 2021 6:43 am

RogerRock wrote:
Sat Apr 03, 2021 12:11 am
colwillys wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 10:26 pm
Check the listing of the collar clash 1922-P
Collar clashes occur when hammer die is vertically misaligned (tilted) and contacts the top edge of the collar die. The collar die is notched at regular intervals in order to form reeded edge. A collar clash transfers the notched edge impression onto the hammer die's rim edge. Repeated collar clashes will cause a "rim break" (see 1922 D VAM 16B Reverse which illustrates strong collar clash with adjacent rim break).

Collar clash visible on your EDS 1922 reverse rim edge below PEACE and first two mountains.
Agreed, but no such Collar Clash on the LDS example though. Also noticed the one specimen has detached hair as well.

Stlcoin
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Re: New Member with a Possible New VAM - 1922-P Peace Dollar - Extra Olive Branch?

Post by Stlcoin » Sat Apr 03, 2021 6:46 am

RogerB wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 6:23 pm
Interesting. Could both coins be shown with identical lighting and orientation?
Thank you, I will try to shoot both together. Also want to see if I can capture a oblique shot under my microscope. Been some time since I took pix. Just got a old Nikkon w/ Macro & a new phone w/ 18MP with Macro, still figuring it out! :} - Jim

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impairedsquirrel
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Re: New Member with a Possible New VAM - 1922-P Peace Dollar - Extra Olive Branch?

Post by impairedsquirrel » Sun Apr 04, 2021 1:04 pm

Definitely clashing. This is a very common clash on Peace dollars and also the one that gets more new Peace dollar members here than any other... this clash for Peace dollars and the "volcano" clash for Morgans.
In short, it's not noteworthy, but you saw it so keep learning and looking! ;)
I'm a Morgan guy, but I have a complete Peace set and I'd guess 3-4 in my set have this clashing. Especially prevalent in the '22-'26 mints.

Ps: It got me once too! These clashes are so bold you can't help but think "Holy crap! That's gotta be something!". It is, buuuut it isn't.
I go totally NUTS for WOW! VAMs!! Or is that from WOW! VAMs?

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bob259
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Re: New Member with a Possible New VAM - 1922-P Peace Dollar - Extra Olive Branch?

Post by bob259 » Sun Apr 04, 2021 4:09 pm

I have lots of Peace dollars with that clash too. Very common!

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...kenny
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Re: New Member with a Possible New VAM - 1922-P Peace Dollar - Extra Olive Branch?

Post by ...kenny » Sun Apr 04, 2021 4:40 pm

it's the top of Miss Liberty's head, below the letter 'R'... ;)
I tried...
Of all the things I've lost, I miss my.........Ahh........Uhmm........something, something, something..... :lol: :lol: :lol:

Stlcoin
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Re: New Member with a Possible New VAM - 1922-P Peace Dollar - Extra Olive Branch?

Post by Stlcoin » Mon Apr 05, 2021 2:56 am

Thanks everyone, been collecting 40 years myself. I have never seen a die clash overrun <over> one ray detail and then subduct <under> the next ray a few millimeters apart as these do. Any ideas how this specifically happens if truly a clash? Most every Peace DCR's I have seen has been the "Shoulder Spike" varieties which always overruns a specific detail never subducts with the exception of the 1921P VAM 3 Ray Through O where I have seen both but thought it's attribution was due to die wear/erosion. Now you guys will have me reviewing hundreds of Peace Dollars! :lol: Hope everyone had a great Easter!

vamsterdam
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Re: New Member with a Possible New VAM - 1922-P Peace Dollar - Extra Olive Branch?

Post by vamsterdam » Mon Apr 05, 2021 2:35 pm

this is a very common occurence on 1922-1924. this is actually the sunken area outlining the cap. you will find loads of them with little looking. when the dies clash without a planchet/blank in the chamber, this is the result. welcome to the madness.

RogerRock
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Re: New Member with a Possible New VAM - 1922-P Peace Dollar - Extra Olive Branch?

Post by RogerRock » Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:31 pm

Stlcoin wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 2:56 am
Thanks everyone, been collecting 40 years myself. I have never seen a die clash overrun <over> one ray detail and then subduct <under> the next ray a few millimeters apart as these do. Any ideas how this specifically happens if truly a clash? Most every Peace DCR's I have seen has been the "Shoulder Spike" varieties which always overruns a specific detail never subducts with the exception of the 1921P VAM 3 Ray Through O where I have seen both but thought it's attribution was due to die wear/erosion. Now you guys will have me reviewing hundreds of Peace Dollars! :lol: Hope everyone had a great Easter!
Specific questions on clashed dies are best answered through review , study , and comparison. I suggest an excellent web site MAD DIE CLASHES currently managed by Jason Cuvelier.
Stage 3 TERMINAL DIE STATE SILVER DOLLAR EXPLORER

Stlcoin
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Re: New Member with a Possible New VAM - 1922-P Peace Dollar - Extra Olive Branch?

Post by Stlcoin » Tue Apr 06, 2021 11:39 am

vamsterdam wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 2:35 pm
this is a very common occurence on 1922-1924. this is actually the sunken area outlining the cap. you will find loads of them with little looking. when the dies clash without a planchet/blank in the chamber, this is the result. welcome to the madness.
Thank You for your input!

Stlcoin
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Re: New Member with a Possible New VAM - 1922-P Peace Dollar - Extra Olive Branch?

Post by Stlcoin » Tue Apr 06, 2021 11:40 am

RogerRock wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:31 pm
Stlcoin wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 2:56 am
Thanks everyone, been collecting 40 years myself. I have never seen a die clash overrun <over> one ray detail and then subduct <under> the next ray a few millimeters apart as these do. Any ideas how this specifically happens if truly a clash? Most every Peace DCR's I have seen has been the "Shoulder Spike" varieties which always overruns a specific detail never subducts with the exception of the 1921P VAM 3 Ray Through O where I have seen both but thought it's attribution was due to die wear/erosion. Now you guys will have me reviewing hundreds of Peace Dollars! :lol: Hope everyone had a great Easter!
Specific questions on clashed dies are best answered through review , study , and comparison. I suggest an excellent web site MAD DIE CLASHES currently managed by Jason Cuvelier.
Thank You John, will certainly check into it!

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