Revisiting the "WHATS A 1881 O VAM 33B WORTH?" question (but as a die progression question)

General discussion board about VAMs, but no buy/sell offers
Post Reply
keilg1
Posts: 144
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2019 4:36 pm
Location: Nottingham, UK

Revisiting the "WHATS A 1881 O VAM 33B WORTH?" question (but as a die progression question)

Post by keilg1 » Mon Mar 22, 2021 4:37 pm

Circling back to this viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4721#p41027and moving it here because it doesn't have to do with "what its worth" and I'm still a bit confused. (Some of this is self-induced, but I blame my age... and the life I lived in the 1980s...)

Besides, I have what appears to be a 33B LDS but not a 50A...

The quick question is: Are the obverse and reverse dies different between the two, or are they different die states of the same pairing?

Is it possible they are related with a die progression that went: 33/50 -> (33A)/50A -> 33B?

Meaning the 33 and 50 were the same (original state of the dies), there was a slight clash producing the 33A/50A version, then another clash happened (in pretty much the same spot) producing the 33B.

A plausible working hypothesis based on a few observations but not the one I think is true.

First, I absolutely love the high resolution photos on the 33B page, but seeing them still has me wondering about a few things to differentiate the two even more than just looking at the regular pages for the 33, 33B, 50 and 50A pages.

Both have doubled ears nearly identical to one another yet the 33B has a III2 22 obverse, the 50A a III2 32 - so seemingly different obverses. Partially answering my question above, suggesting the obverses are different, yet...

Yet, the obverse clashing/letter transfer seen on both are also nearly identical. Same reverse wing placement on the neck, same In and ST placements, etc. The 50A almost looks like a LDS of the 33B, to my untrained eye: the clashes defining the 33B much more clearly seen than coins that got struck later with the same die... producing a LDS that is the 50A...

This doesn't make sense, however, because there is date cracking along the 33B's digits (in at least the high res pictures) that is not there on the 50A. Not seen dramatically in the LCP on the 33B page, but clearly shown in the high res pictures. These cracks are only partially seen, if they are at all, on the 50A page, but they are clearly not mentioned. This again suggests the 33B has an early and strongly clashed version without digit cracks that then show up, but they'd not magically disappear like the clashing might (i.e., taking the 33B into a LDS that is the 50A, and not the other way around).

The 50/50A reverse has a faint clashed M and a small gouge along the first L of DOLLAR, not seen on the 33B, and the 50/50A lacks any supposed cracks along the reverse wreath that IS seen in the 33B. But these are not inconsistent with either explanation, unfortunately. There is no mention of an M transfer on the 33B so this doesn't clarify the story.

So... what could have happened (hypothesis #1):

* The 33/50 die produced coins with a doubled ear but little else. (The VAM75 could have preceded this/these, but that is a related-but-different story? See below...) Importantly, this die pairing had a diagonal line eye front but one that was not seen on the discovery coin - which could have been a slightly different die state.
* A clash happened (oh my!), creating the 33A/50A, showing the In and ST, and M faintly, but no strong clash lines on the reverse, and no wreath cracking yet.
* Another clash happened creating the 33B with all the wonderful new PUPs, letter transfer and all (but the original M transfer faded...).

Alternatively (hypothesis #2), the 33 and 50 are still the same, a massive clash happened forming the 33B, time marched on and turned in to a LDS (possibly the 50A), with the reverse getting replaced (thus, removing the clash marks on the back because it was a new reverse die)... and the obverse got replaced, creating the 75 in the process?

I don't know - and why I'm asking.

Whatever the truth is, there is a discrepancy needing correcting: the VAM-50 page says "VAM-50 and VAM-75 are the same die pairings just different die states" (meaning the obv and rev are the same!), but the VAM-75 page says its obverse is a III2 51 but has the "Same reverse die as VAM-50." Which is it? Are the same die paring and a different die state or a shared reverse but different obverses?

Love this little piece of the VAMWorld puzzle. What makes life tolerable during this pandemic (and when the only thing to complain about is politics...).

Thanks,

Gary
Gary Redfeather, PhD, RPh

https://www.linkedin.com/in/drgarykeil/

Click https://gjkeil2-82005.medium.com/our-lo ... 485d6cf0a5 to read the backstory of my surname change

User avatar
ljs123
Posts: 1550
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2018 7:16 pm

Re: Revisiting the "WHATS A 1881 O VAM 33B WORTH?" question (but as a die progression question)

Post by ljs123 » Mon Mar 22, 2021 5:13 pm

I don’t think they (33B & 50A) are the same die pair.
The mint marks look like they are in slightly different locations.

keilg1
Posts: 144
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2019 4:36 pm
Location: Nottingham, UK

Re: Revisiting the "WHATS A 1881 O VAM 33B WORTH?" question (but as a die progression question)

Post by keilg1 » Mon Mar 22, 2021 8:01 pm

Thanks, @ljs123 .

I did look at those, too, but I see them as slightly high normal with a slight left tilt, but I can't tell if they are different.

My coin has the cracks (obv and rev) with what appears to be the curved arc in the lower portion of the O (I'd not call it an O/O but it does look like an O/O low in other VAMs), so I'm sure it is a 33 variety, with clashing but rather faint letter transfer, so I'd call it a LDS. And this is were it looks like the 50A (ish)...

Appreciate the mention as it is another puzzle piece. I just can't find how it fits.

Gary
Gary Redfeather, PhD, RPh

https://www.linkedin.com/in/drgarykeil/

Click https://gjkeil2-82005.medium.com/our-lo ... 485d6cf0a5 to read the backstory of my surname change

User avatar
ljs123
Posts: 1550
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2018 7:16 pm

Re: Revisiting the "WHATS A 1881 O VAM 33B WORTH?" question (but as a die progression question)

Post by ljs123 » Mon Mar 22, 2021 8:37 pm

I'm not the best with computers (read as I'm not very good :lol: ), but I will try and demonstrate that the mm location of the 33B is different than than the 50A. Because I am using the reverse LFCPs on the VW pages and enlarging them, my lines get a little off. But I think you will clearly see that they are different reverses due to the mm location.
I am attempting to show that the 33B mm is just slightly lower and tilted a little to the left when compared to the 50A.
I hope that this helps.

The line through the 33B mm just misses the bow knot and into the Eagle's 4th tail feather.
Also the 33B mm is very slightly lower than the 50A.
Occ-1881-o-v33b-6-28-13a-ljsmodified#1.jpg
Occ-1881-o-v33b-6-28-13a-ljsmodified#1.jpg (175.51 KiB) Viewed 1304 times

The line through the 50A mm goes through the bow knot and into the Eagle's 3rd tail feather.
Occ-1881-o-v50a-2-21-16-rev-ljsmodified#1.jpg
Occ-1881-o-v50a-2-21-16-rev-ljsmodified#1.jpg (63 KiB) Viewed 1304 times

JASONKFLO
Posts: 469
Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2020 2:59 am
Location: EMMETT IDAHO

Re: Revisiting the "WHATS A 1881 O VAM 33B WORTH?" question (but as a die progression question)

Post by JASONKFLO » Mon Mar 22, 2021 9:06 pm

I sent something to John a few weeks back for the 2021 group submission number #1 . If I recall correctly I think it may of been 50a but I am not certain and I don’t remember the coin well enough . I’ll see if I have any pics of it though
Jason Floyd
I climb Mountains , Grow Bamboo and like Coins

User avatar
impairedsquirrel
Posts: 716
Joined: Mon May 28, 2018 2:42 pm
Location: Happy Valley, USA

Re: Revisiting the "WHATS A 1881 O VAM 33B WORTH?" question (but as a die progression question)

Post by impairedsquirrel » Tue Mar 23, 2021 12:04 am

Lee is correct and that discrepancy with the mint mark was the first thing that caused me to question if the "33a" was truly a 33a. This means he is also correct that the 50a is not related to the 33 die pair.

Gary, does your coin have "cuddlings" (small rim cuds around the obverse)? If so, it is a 50a. The "cuddlings" were the second tell that 33a wasn't what it seemed because how could an earlier die state of a listed VAM ALSO be later die state of the same VAM (33b has no cuddlings). When you see a 33b, trust me, you know you've seen a 33b! ;)
I go totally NUTS for WOW! VAMs!! Or is that from WOW! VAMs?

blh74
Posts: 658
Joined: Wed May 30, 2018 1:28 am

Re: Revisiting the "WHATS A 1881 O VAM 33B WORTH?" question (but as a die progression question)

Post by blh74 » Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:12 am

ljs123 wrote:
Mon Mar 22, 2021 5:13 pm
I don’t think they (33B & 50A) are the same die pair.
The mint marks look like they are in slightly different locations.
I have one of each. I agree the mint marks are different.

User avatar
ljs123
Posts: 1550
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2018 7:16 pm

Re: Revisiting the "WHATS A 1881 O VAM 33B WORTH?" question (but as a die progression question)

Post by ljs123 » Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:49 am

blh74 wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:12 am
ljs123 wrote:
Mon Mar 22, 2021 5:13 pm
I don’t think they (33B & 50A) are the same die pair.
The mint marks look like they are in slightly different locations.
I have one of each. I agree the mint marks are different.

I have both also.

keilg1
Posts: 144
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2019 4:36 pm
Location: Nottingham, UK

Re: Revisiting the "WHATS A 1881 O VAM 33B WORTH?" question (but as a die progression question)

Post by keilg1 » Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:18 pm

Thanks, all, for the input. I'll need to grab the coin and look for the 'cuddlings' (brilliant term).

Can now appreciate the nuances have been looked into and that they are most likely different die combinations that are just eerily similar.

Sounds a lot like my wider family in Wyoming... Different, for sure, yet cut from the same fabric.

Explains the lack of cracking, etc. that didn't make sense to me.

Similar to other VAMs, is the VLDS of the 33B that has any letter transfer faded to the background just a VAM-33?

@ljs123 love what you've done - to me your 'not very good' with the computer is pretty impressive to me. Like to see how the 33B is lower and more tilted left.

Still wondering about the potential 50 and 75 page discrepancy.

As they say in jolly ol' England: All y'all rock.

Gary
Gary Redfeather, PhD, RPh

https://www.linkedin.com/in/drgarykeil/

Click https://gjkeil2-82005.medium.com/our-lo ... 485d6cf0a5 to read the backstory of my surname change

Post Reply