One Cool Mint Error

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PacificWR
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One Cool Mint Error

Post by PacificWR » Fri Mar 19, 2021 2:10 am

Not 100 percent sure what caused this, but it sure did not stop the design transfer on the Obverse. In case there is any doubt, flip over the coin to the reverse and the same cannot be said (design transfer) the olive branch, Eagle's foot and arrow shaft are mush and it does match up with the Obverse. The coin is an 1889-P. Checkout the photos below:



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RogerRock
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Re: One Cool Mint Error

Post by RogerRock » Fri Mar 19, 2021 3:19 am

A metal shard caused the obverse strike thru because die design was transferred onto the coin's depressed surface. Typically, a coin metal shard (silver) is the culprit when design transfer is this complete.

The reverse strike thru shows the much more common type of debris clogged devices that appear featureless in the depressed area.

It would be extremely fortuitous to have the obverse unretained struck thru piece !
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fogie
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Re: One Cool Mint Error

Post by fogie » Fri Mar 19, 2021 3:42 am

I would be in on the PMD side. The "damage" clearly happened AFTER the coin was struck (on a strike thru you do not have the details from the die in the strike thru - the details are struck ON the obstruction).

RogerRock
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Re: One Cool Mint Error

Post by RogerRock » Fri Mar 19, 2021 5:50 am

fogie wrote:
Fri Mar 19, 2021 3:42 am
I would be in on the PMD side. The "damage" clearly happened AFTER the coin was struck (on a strike thru you do not have the details from the die in the strike thru - the details are struck ON the obstruction).
Item -- I posted a 1976 copper nickel IKE dollar on this forum PCGS MS 63 Mint Error 20% Indented Obverse 90 degree rotated reverse cw clashed die letter transfer D WE which retained the outline of IKE's head and neck in the floor of that VERY DEEP obverse indent.
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vampicker
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Re: One Cool Mint Error

Post by vampicker » Fri Mar 19, 2021 12:23 pm

Here's the thread Roger is referring to....
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4186&hilit=ike+indent

It's worth noting the limited Ike design in the indented area stays more or less in its original shape. It does not bend and stretch thru the indented area like we see on the Morgan in question.

Unfortunately, that Morgan may look cool, but I agree with the PMD verdict.
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PacificWR
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Re: One Cool Mint Error

Post by PacificWR » Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:31 pm

RogerRock wrote:
Fri Mar 19, 2021 3:19 am
A metal shard caused the obverse strike thru because die design was transferred onto the coin's depressed surface. Typically, a coin metal shard (silver) is the culprit when design transfer is this complete.

The reverse strike thru shows the much more common type of debris clogged devices that appear featureless in the depressed area.

It would be extremely fortuitous to have the obverse unretained struck thru piece !
Roger, I think you nailed it. If you look at the crevice you will see numerous silver shards all over. They are small and this does not necessarily prove it happened during the strike, but I think the Y in LIBERTY does. What may be lost here is the depth of the crevice...it is deep and when you look at the top right serif in LIBERTY it is stretched, but not broken. That indicates to me it happened during the strike of the coin. If this would have happened after the coin was struck the top serif of the Y in LIBERTY would have been broken. In addition, there are other design elements that bare this out. Finally, the depth of the crevice is what caused the weak strike on the Reverse of the olive branch and arrow shafts.

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messydesk
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Re: One Cool Mint Error

Post by messydesk » Fri Mar 19, 2021 2:10 pm

It looks like a whack with the edge of the face of a hammer. Strike-thru wouldn't have any sharp detail, such as the Y and hair, and presumably die polishing lines that might be observed within the Y. It also wouldn't have the trauma observed on the reverse on the arrows and branch.
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VamHelsing
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Re: One Cool Mint Error

Post by VamHelsing » Fri Mar 19, 2021 3:28 pm

I'm in the PMD camp.

iwillbenice
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Re: One Cool Mint Error

Post by iwillbenice » Fri Mar 19, 2021 9:11 pm

PMD all the way. :(

Vam-mysterio
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Re: One Cool Mint Error

Post by Vam-mysterio » Fri Mar 19, 2021 10:16 pm

Pmd

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PacificWR
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Re: One Cool Mint Error

Post by PacificWR » Sat Mar 20, 2021 1:36 pm

Interesting replies, but Roger nailed it.

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vampicker
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Re: One Cool Mint Error

Post by vampicker » Sat Mar 20, 2021 2:58 pm

Maybe you should buy more coins that look just like this
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PacificWR
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Re: One Cool Mint Error

Post by PacificWR » Sat Mar 20, 2021 3:13 pm

vampicker wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 2:58 pm
Maybe you should buy more coins that look just like this
If the price is right I just might do that. I already have a nice collection of certified Mint Errors.

Tekkie1
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Re: One Cool Mint Error

Post by Tekkie1 » Sat Mar 20, 2021 7:26 pm

Yeah, I say PMD as well but really cool nonetheless. :)

vamsterdam
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Re: One Cool Mint Error

Post by vamsterdam » Tue Mar 23, 2021 5:41 pm

absolutely PMD, unless it was struck thru something that had already struck the die in the same precise location that had the details underlying the strike thru in it. a strike through is an object, or matter lying on the die, or the planchet when the die strikes it. a piece of metal, or wood, or cloth is not going to leave the struck thru area sharp and clear.

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PacificWR
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Re: One Cool Mint Error

Post by PacificWR » Tue Mar 23, 2021 6:38 pm

vamsterdam wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 5:41 pm
absolutely PMD, unless it was struck thru something that had already struck the die in the same precise location that had the details underlying the strike thru in it. a strike through is an object, or matter lying on the die, or the planchet when the die strikes it. a piece of metal, or wood, or cloth is not going to leave the struck thru area sharp and clear.
Not entirely accurate here. For the design elements to be impressed into the sides and bottom of the crevice the object had to be soft. Not wood or a thread because you would see the detail of the wood or thread in the crevice and that is not the case here.
It probably was a piece of silver from the planchet or stuck to the die when the coin was struck. Since silver is a soft metal the design (unbroken) elements would then be impressed into the sides and bottom of the crevice when the coin was struck. Just like the photos show. Roger nailed it.

RogerB
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Re: One Cool Mint Error

Post by RogerB » Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:07 pm

Based on the photos, the odd defect is likely post mint damage – possibly intentional.

The key to determining post mint versus strike through is the “Y” in Liberty. That part of the die is raised and strikes the planchet before the surrounding cotton. If something were on the planchet before striking, the Y would contact that first, and part of the force would be dissipated in the debris. The result would be a fuzzy or missing Y.

In a post mint damage situation, the “Y” on the coin is recessed below surrounding cotton. It is too low to be affected by the damage, yet the cotton is noticeably flattened.

As for coordinating obverse and reverse damage, that depends on the material that damaged the obverse. It was likely something a little softer than coin silver but with smooth contours, and the coin was sitting on a very hard surface such as an iron plate or anvil.

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Re: One Cool Mint Error

Post by vamsterdam » Wed Mar 24, 2021 3:21 pm

how could the Y show if there was something on the die that obstructed it?

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Re: One Cool Mint Error

Post by RogerB » Wed Mar 24, 2021 5:09 pm

vamsterdam wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 3:21 pm
how could the Y show if there was something on the die that obstructed it?
It wouldn't - or would be distorted. That's why post minting damage is suggested.

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Re: One Cool Mint Error

Post by vamsterdam » Thu Mar 25, 2021 2:11 pm

@RogerB i said it was absolutely PMD but i was told i was wrong, so that's why I posed the question.

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