1889-P with unusual clashing

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Pareidoliac
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1889-P with unusual clashing

Post by Pareidoliac » Fri Sep 21, 2018 2:25 am

Can someone help in identifying this 1889-P VAM that is unusually clashed? On the reverse is an unusual tripled (perhaps quadrupled) sideways vee clash in the field next to right upper wreath leaves. There is also double (perhaps triple) vertical clash lines above eagle's right wing extending to n of In but no die break above the wing. There is more reverse clashing near the left wreath leaves and a die break in the top-most leaves and (possibly tripled) incuse lettering at the bottom right of top-most leaves (in the photo this appears as a curved line). There is no clashed die letter transfer VAM on the 1889 list that would line up with these diagnostics. Several die cracks are evident in rim lettering and one die crack cuts through tip of eagle's right wing.

On the obverse, just below the hair vee at cap band, there are three very strong clash marks, inverted Vs. Weak clash line at neck with possible incuse n.
Attachments
1889 obv.jpg
1889 obv.jpg (190.91 KiB) Viewed 6682 times
1889 clash obv 2.jpg
1889 clash obv 2.jpg (152.03 KiB) Viewed 6682 times
1889 wreath.jpg
1889 wreath.jpg (281.91 KiB) Viewed 6682 times
1889 rev wing clash.jpg
1889 rev wing clash.jpg (165.41 KiB) Viewed 6682 times
1889 triple sideways vee clash.jpg
1889 triple sideways vee clash.jpg (114.54 KiB) Viewed 6682 times

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ljs123
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Re: 1889-P with unusual clashing

Post by ljs123 » Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:17 am

Right now on my phone, I don't know your VAM. But I would like to let you know that the curved lines in the upper part of the left wreath is not incuse letter transfer. It is where lady Liberty's face outline clashed with the reverse die.

Pareidoliac
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Re: 1889-P with unusual clashing

Post by Pareidoliac » Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:26 am

Thank you. I need to understand the process so I can figure out what I am seeing and why. Would appreciate book recommendations.

Pareidoliac
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Re: 1889-P with unusual clashing

Post by Pareidoliac » Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:39 am

What am I seeing in the obverse field just below the cap band/hair vee? Arrows from reverse?

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LorenAlbert
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Re: 1889-P with unusual clashing

Post by LorenAlbert » Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:49 am

Clashing at about 0 deg rotation
ObverseReverse

The rotation for the above 83OV24 is close enough to your coin to demonstrate the clashing you see. For example, click on the obverse link. Then click on the cap V. The clash marks in this area are from right wreath. Similarly, click on the lips, the clash marks in this region (fish hook) are from the left wreath. Click on the left wreath of the reverse. Your coin appears to be triple+ clashed. In the case of the profile clash, one event clashed the lips and the nose profile and another event clashed the lips but not the nose profile. This may reflect that the angle of dies were different for each event.
Last edited by LorenAlbert on Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:18 am, edited 5 times in total.

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PacificWR
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Re: 1889-P with unusual clashing

Post by PacificWR » Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:03 am

Check VAM 43A and VAM 40A2.

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ljs123
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Re: 1889-P with unusual clashing

Post by ljs123 » Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:04 am

You asked about obverse clashing near the cap band. To answer, I will start on your coin's reverse.
Look at the big clash mark at your upper right wreath. Now picture the back of Lady Liberty's head outline clashing against the reverse die. It is the part of her hair outline near the cap band. Notice the outline of the leaves of the wreath.
So if you now flip the coin over you will see the outline of the leaves clashed near the cap band.

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UncleGildy
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Re: 1889-P with unusual clashing

Post by UncleGildy » Fri Sep 21, 2018 5:57 am

mmoj@ptd.net wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:26 am
Thank you. I need to understand the process so I can figure out what I am seeing and why. Would appreciate book recommendations.
I find the section on Die Clashing in the Attribution101 page very helpful. There's a common clash feature region map and a funky OBV/REV superimposed image further down. I saved a copy to my desktop :)

For more reference material, the die making process, history and more can be found at http://www.1881o.com is free and very good stuff. Fun to read, ut there are many more online resources. As for old fashioned paper books: The last two are must-haves for me, and I'd have a tough time choosing only one. I also have the "WOW! VAM book" by Franklin which is a fun read and well illustrated.

Pareidoliac
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Re: 1889-P with unusual clashing

Post by Pareidoliac » Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:54 am

Grateful for all the assistance. Have my homework cut out for me.

Pareidoliac
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Re: 1889-P with unusual clashing

Post by Pareidoliac » Fri Sep 21, 2018 12:27 pm

The links provided by Loren Albert were worth a thousand words. And, I also found the following helpful:

"A die clash occurs when the obverse and reverse dies are damaged upon striking each other without a planchet between them. Due to the tremendous pressure used, parts of the image of one die may be impressed on the other." This is something the non-novice takes for granted, but to me it was a complete unknown and a "dah" moment.

So, more questions: When a triple+ clash mark is seen, does that mean the obv and rev dies clashed three or more times in a row without a planchet between them? (How does that happen; mechanical error? Human error? Both? I assume the planchets were mechanically fed or maybe not.) And, how common is triple clashing? I know there is a 3 + 2 clashed reverse 1886, but why three clashes above and only two below, and why so far apart? I assume one or both dies move a bit, or rotate, with each clash strike, true? Perhaps the third clash in the case of the 1886 was too weak to leave an impression on the opposing die or the planchet somehow tilted after the second clash?

Pareidoliac
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Re: 1889-P with unusual clashing

Post by Pareidoliac » Fri Sep 21, 2018 12:31 pm

Not planchet; rather, maybe the die tilted after second clash? Can a die "tilt" or become off balance after a die clash?

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ljs123
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Re: 1889-P with unusual clashing

Post by ljs123 » Fri Sep 21, 2018 1:55 pm

For sure not VAM-40A2, but I'm pretty sure that Wayne is correct in that it is a match to VAM-43A.

Multiple clash events are not uncommon. I do not know if they occurred one exactly after another in the case of this VAM, or if there was some time in between. Some VAMs are known to have the second clash event well after the first. This is known because several examples are available with only the first clash. Some times the second clash event creates a second listable clashed letter and so the coins from the second clash event have a different VAM number. For example 1889-O VAM-1A1 and 1A2. VAM 1A1 does not have a clashed G and VAM-1A2 does have the clashed G.

Welcome to my world of Clashed VAMs. Take another look at the upper left wreath closely and picture Lady Liberty's face outline. It may take some time. Clash features are not always easy to imagine. It is not a die break, but instead a part of the face outline clashed close to the wreath leaf. It clashed at that location hard enough to cause what sort of looks like a break.
Stick with it, your doing great. Keep asking questions.
Lee

Pareidoliac
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Re: 1889-P with unusual clashing

Post by Pareidoliac » Sat Sep 22, 2018 10:48 am

Lee,

I found die polishing marks on this 1889-P in all the spots noted in VAMWORLD photos of VAM-43A. Where I am having a disconnect is why this 1889-P with triple clashing is not identified as a separate clashed VAM variety; there is not a word about clashing in VAM-43A. Are there non-clashed VAM-43A Morgans, and if so why wouldn't the clashed variety be a different VAM? I suspect the answer may be that no letter transfer has occurred as a result of the clashing. Supposing that is the case, why would letter transfer be any different or more significant than the transfer of a clashed profile or leaves? Thanks again for your help.

Best Regards,
Ken

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ljs123
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Re: 1889-P with unusual clashing

Post by ljs123 » Sat Sep 22, 2018 4:03 pm

"Are there non-clashed VAM-43A Morgans, and if so why wouldn't the clashed variety be a different VAM?"
1. Most likely there are non-clashed 43As.
2. The short answer to your second question is that it needs to have letter transfer, as you suspected.

"why would letter transfer be any different or more significant than the transfer of a clashed profile or leaves?"
The short answer is when you are the one inventing a hobby, you get to make the rules. LVA and George Mallis made the rules.
Think about how many VAMs there are listed for just the 1878-Ps. There are hundreds of different VAMs. Now if every slight change during the life of the die caused you to make a new listing there would be thousands. The hobby would totally get bogged down in listings. Listings can already be confusing at times. Just think about how hard it would be to figure out the listings when there are 10 times more listings for every minor thing. So there has to be a cut off somewhere. LVA and was the one that decided where that cut off was and is.

Take a look at this link and go down to Die Clashing.
http://ec2-13-58-222-16.us-east-2.compu ... bution_101

Keep up the good work.

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CascadeChris
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Re: 1889-P with unusual clashing

Post by CascadeChris » Sat Sep 22, 2018 4:23 pm

Heres a great learning resource too when it comes to errors and how they happen. Its general and not dollar specific but it gives you a good idea of error terms, what and why then you can do a deeper research dive on specific error types... Scroll down to the page links in blue:

http://www.error-ref.com/

And now that you have a basic handle on clashed dies, you can proceed to progressive indirect design transfer (a kissing cousin of die clashing, think Doubled Die vs Die Bounce/MD if you know the difference between those)
Alonzi VW 2.0!

Pareidoliac
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Re: 1889-P with unusual clashing

Post by Pareidoliac » Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:17 pm

Lee, I wasn’t expecting the answer about the rules. Sounds like VAM discrimination to me! 😉 I might need to hear the long answer at some point. I certainly understand how the complexity of all this can stunt interest in VAM collecting, yet the possibility of discovering new VAMs could attract newcomers. There always has been excitement and challenge in finding mint errors.

When I look at this coin I think, “Wow!” There are many VAMs that have found a place in the lineup with not more than a dot by a designer’s M or a small die gouge somewhere at the end of a crack. Yet, this coin with truly outstanding clashing and heavy non-letter design transfer is not only NOT a WOW but not even a VAM candidate...and will never be, unless the rules change. Many nights I tax the limits of my eyesight and imagination straining to find fleeting n’s and t’s in hair vees with a jeweler’s loop while I can clearly see face profiles and leaves jump off this coin under poor lighting and with no magnification, and I can’t imagine there are very many of these in existence. Now the reason this coin cannot be a separate VAM may be in the long answer, and I suspect it is, so I will keep studying.

I hope you know I mean absolutely no disrespect by my comments. Thanks again for the links. I feel like a school kid with too much homework on a Saturday when my favorite college team is televised.

Pareidoliac
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Re: 1889-P with unusual clashing

Post by Pareidoliac » Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:42 am

This coin was submitted for attribution and grading. Graded MS 65 but there was no letter transfer. It is a VAM-43A.

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ljs123
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Re: 1889-P with unusual clashing

Post by ljs123 » Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:23 am

Thanks for the follow up :P

Nice call Wayne

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