1885 Double Top or RPD?

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Dirtdoctor
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1885 Double Top or RPD?

Post by Dirtdoctor » Sun Jan 24, 2021 7:58 pm

When does a doubled date become a RPD?

This coin has clear doubling along the top of the 5. I recall giving up on a fit, and assigning it VAM 2. No premium regardless and I just let it go as close-enough.

I have checked the page on 1885 doubled tops (and spot checked other possibilities) and have not found a good match. The date on this one is too far right to fit most doubled-top listings...; 2 (also no dash); 6; 11; 13; 14; 15; 31; and 38.

That leaves 12, which has virtually no description except "thin line set well above top", and 10.

The text of VAM 10 says the date is in middle of normal, but the accompanying pic seems to show the date is at the right edge of normal. The text also says the doubling tapers down from left to right. Mine stays constant. Mine also appears to have doubling in bottom loop of second 8. I don't see much going on around the ear which is also mentioned in 10.

Is this a 10, 12, or other?
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8.jpg
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Obverse.jpg
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TheYokel
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Re: 1885 Double Top or RPD?

Post by TheYokel » Sun Jan 24, 2021 8:29 pm

The date would need to be doubled on the hub for an RPD. A hub being slightly misaligned and causing a doubled working die would not be an RPD. In my mind...

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messydesk
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Re: 1885 Double Top or RPD?

Post by messydesk » Sun Jan 24, 2021 10:14 pm

RPD means repunched date. If the date is formed with a punch, it can be repunched, such as is the case with the coin shown and all other Morgan's before 1921 (except maybe some 1878s). If the date is only in the hub, it cannot be a RPD, and any doubling is due to a doubled die.
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TheYokel
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Re: 1885 Double Top or RPD?

Post by TheYokel » Sun Jan 24, 2021 10:43 pm

messydesk wrote:
Sun Jan 24, 2021 10:14 pm
RPD means repunched date. If the date is formed with a punch, it can be repunched, such as is the case with the coin shown and all other Morgan's before 1921 (except maybe some 1878s). If the date is only in the hub, it cannot be a RPD, and any doubling is due to a doubled die.
They punched the date into the master hubs, yes? Then they used those to make the working hubs and then the dies. By definition all RPDs would be on the hub. Just depends which one.

The difference would be whether the doubling was caused by a human punching it a second time, or the if hub/dies were causing the doubling down the line like a game of telephone...
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messydesk
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Re: 1885 Double Top or RPD?

Post by messydesk » Mon Jan 25, 2021 1:53 am

TheYokel wrote:
Sun Jan 24, 2021 10:43 pm
messydesk wrote:
Sun Jan 24, 2021 10:14 pm
RPD means repunched date. If the date is formed with a punch, it can be repunched, such as is the case with the coin shown and all other Morgan's before 1921 (except maybe some 1878s). If the date is only in the hub, it cannot be a RPD, and any doubling is due to a doubled die.
They punched the date into the master hubs, yes?
No. Dates were punched into the working dies for all series until 1909. Starting in 1909, dates were punched into a master die, so any doubling on the date would be a doubled die, not a repunched date.
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TheYokel
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Re: 1885 Double Top or RPD?

Post by TheYokel » Mon Jan 25, 2021 1:55 am

messydesk wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 1:53 am
TheYokel wrote:
Sun Jan 24, 2021 10:43 pm
messydesk wrote:
Sun Jan 24, 2021 10:14 pm
RPD means repunched date. If the date is formed with a punch, it can be repunched, such as is the case with the coin shown and all other Morgan's before 1921 (except maybe some 1878s). If the date is only in the hub, it cannot be a RPD, and any doubling is due to a doubled die.
They punched the date into the master hubs, yes?
No. Dates were punched into the working dies for all series until 1909. Starting in 1909, dates were punched into a master die, so any doubling on the date would be a doubled die, not a repunched date.
If dates were punched directly into the working dies... Then *Every* single Morgan double date is an RPD. (Or strike doubling). Correct?
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messydesk
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Re: 1885 Double Top or RPD?

Post by messydesk » Mon Jan 25, 2021 2:14 am

TheYokel wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 1:55 am
messydesk wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 1:53 am
TheYokel wrote:
Sun Jan 24, 2021 10:43 pm


They punched the date into the master hubs, yes?
No. Dates were punched into the working dies for all series until 1909. Starting in 1909, dates were punched into a master die, so any doubling on the date would be a doubled die, not a repunched date.
If dates were punched directly into the working dies... Then *Every* single Morgan double date is an RPD. (Or strike doubling). Correct?
Yes. That's what I was talking about above. Every Morgan with a doubled date is a repunched date, with the exception of 1921 and some early ones that did have digits in the hub and could be a mishmash of doubled die and repunched digits.
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TheYokel
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Re: 1885 Double Top or RPD?

Post by TheYokel » Mon Jan 25, 2021 2:42 am

messydesk wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 2:14 am
TheYokel wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 1:55 am
messydesk wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 1:53 am

No. Dates were punched into the working dies for all series until 1909. Starting in 1909, dates were punched into a master die, so any doubling on the date would be a doubled die, not a repunched date.
If dates were punched directly into the working dies... Then *Every* single Morgan double date is an RPD. (Or strike doubling). Correct?
Yes. That's what I was talking about above. Every Morgan with a doubled date is a repunched date, with the exception of 1921 and some early ones that did have digits in the hub and could be a mishmash of doubled die and repunched digits.
*makes notes...* Thank you boss.
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Mhomei
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Re: 1885 Double Top or RPD?

Post by Mhomei » Tue Jan 26, 2021 3:46 am

Looks like a V10 to me

Dirtdoctor
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Re: 1885 Double Top or RPD?

Post by Dirtdoctor » Tue Jan 26, 2021 4:11 am

I think that's right. This coin matches up fairly well with the photos (including micro-gouges on reverse by eagle's legs), but the attached photos are inconsistent with the description in the listing.

+ "Date set in the middle of normal tolerance." should maybe say "Date set at right edge of normal tolerance"

+ "1- The doubling on the 5 tapers down from left to right and has a steeper cut on the outside top corner of 5 as shown by arrow on plate" should maybe say "doubling on the five is constant across the top of the 5."

Thanks for the feedback.

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