1921-P VAMs 24A1-2-3 progression

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DHalladay
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1921-P VAMs 24A1-2-3 progression

Post by DHalladay » Tue Dec 22, 2020 9:47 pm

24A1.jpg
24A1.jpg (190.9 KiB) Viewed 1908 times
In VAM 24A1 (above), cracks at the left reverse star, U and N have already begun. Cracks at the top of the N are very small and there is no sign of the multiple cracks above U that are yet to come. When they did, they seem to have happened fairly quickly. There is pitting around obverse star #4, as well as on 24A2 and 24A3.


24A1b.jpg
24A1b.jpg (171.9 KiB) Viewed 1908 times
24A2.jpg
24A2.jpg (204.16 KiB) Viewed 1908 times
Cracks in VAM 24A2 (preceding 2 photos) have progressed significantly – especially above the U. The crack from the top left of N now reaches the denticles above the U and there is a crack from the right “arm” of U that extends to the denticles. In the late stage of this process, a 2-piece outline of what will become a cud is now seen above the U – the right half of which has displaced field break characteristics.


24A3.jpg
24A3.jpg (187.96 KiB) Viewed 1908 times
In VAM 24A3 (above), a distinctive and rather tall cud has formed above the U, along with a small rectangular chip that fills into the denticles gap. The cud in the top opening of the N has also grown.

All three VAMs are rated R-6 by Leroy Van Allen. 24A2 and 24A3 have decent populations at SSDC: 14 each, likely because of how attention-getting the cud outline and the cud are. But VAM 24A1, being less noticeable, has just 6 coins registered. I continue to look for a VAM 24, which does not have pitting at the 4th star and, frankly, I have doubts it actually exists.
When in doubt... don't.

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bjsilverfox
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Re: 1921-P VAMs 24A1-2-3 progression

Post by bjsilverfox » Wed Dec 23, 2020 5:27 am

Dennis thanks for posting. Great photo's of the VAM 24 1-2-3 progression. I have all three but never really gave the VAM 24 without the observe pitting a second thought. I will be keep my eyes open for it now.

Kissov
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Re: 1921-P VAMs 24A1-2-3 progression

Post by Kissov » Wed Dec 23, 2020 3:25 pm

Nice work.

I have a 24A1 EDS with pitting on the fourth right star and the appropriate scribbles but with no reverse pitting and no cracks on "UNITED", just the start of cracking around the star.

WIN_20201223_08_20_29_Pro.jpg
WIN_20201223_08_20_29_Pro.jpg (151.79 KiB) Viewed 1864 times
WIN_20201223_08_20_49_Pro.jpg
WIN_20201223_08_20_49_Pro.jpg (181.58 KiB) Viewed 1864 times
WIN_20201223_08_22_13_Pro.jpg
WIN_20201223_08_22_13_Pro.jpg (184.06 KiB) Viewed 1864 times

Geseas
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Re: 1921-P VAMs 24A1-2-3 progression

Post by Geseas » Thu Dec 24, 2020 2:55 am

The 1921-P VAM 24 seems to be shrouded in mystery, for me anyway. The page mentions, "Die marker Die 2 - Single horizonal die polishing line from lower wreath berry opposite right L in DOLLAR", as a pup. Is there a photograph of this feature? Maybe it is on the V24A1? Thanks for the help.

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ljs123
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Re: 1921-P VAMs 24A1-2-3 progression

Post by ljs123 » Thu Dec 24, 2020 7:24 am

Geseas wrote:
Thu Dec 24, 2020 2:55 am
The 1921-P VAM 24 seems to be shrouded in mystery, for me anyway. The page mentions, "Die marker Die 2 - Single horizonal die polishing line from lower wreath berry opposite right L in DOLLAR", as a pup. Is there a photograph of this feature? Maybe it is on the V24A1? Thanks for the help.

Yes, there is a photo shown on the 24B pages.
Last edited by ljs123 on Thu Dec 24, 2020 7:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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ljs123
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Re: 1921-P VAMs 24A1-2-3 progression

Post by ljs123 » Thu Dec 24, 2020 7:26 am

Dennis,
I always love looking at your photos.
Thanks for your documentation of the 21-Ps.

DHalladay
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Re: 1921-P VAMs 24A1-2-3 progression

Post by DHalladay » Thu Dec 24, 2020 3:53 pm

What is the relationship between the 24A and 24B series? I see none.
Their scribbles are different, which means the reverses are different.
And why is the same PUP ("Single horizontal die polishing line from lower wreath berry opposite right L in DOLLAR") cited for both VAM 24 and 24B?
I suspect it doesn't belong cited for 24... although I don't have a VAM 24 to be able to confirm.

By the way, I have two coins that sure seem to mess up the existing progression of the 24B series.
When in doubt... don't.

Geseas
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Re: 1921-P VAMs 24A1-2-3 progression

Post by Geseas » Thu Dec 24, 2020 5:34 pm

One thing at a time Dennis! :D I am just kidding you.

I have this coin I would like to try and photograph as a 1921-P VAM-24. I was calling it one of the VAM-35 's and is photographed here under the post title, "viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4648".

This new tool/laptop I use had a hard time finding this photograph:

[The extension png has been deactivated and can no longer be displayed.]

(I wouldn't rule out the operator error) Now it's everywhere...thanks@ljs123

This next photo of the berry above second 'L' in 'DOLLAR' in on the coin mentioned above (the VAM-35 series, IMO):
GCS3629.JPG
GCS3629.JPG (171.64 KiB) Viewed 1794 times
I will attempt a photo of just that berry...here: I think there may be a die scratch and die crack at that berry.
gcs 21P berry_L.JPG
gcs 21P berry_L.JPG (277.17 KiB) Viewed 1781 times
...rather slim pickings for much on that berry. I need a DHalladay photo of the berry here.

This next photo is on the 1921-P VAM-24 page. I think it is critical to match this photo. I did not realize till now, that it has 'that berry' in it also... It is 'thee berry' for a 1921-P VAM-24;... so far. I notice VAM-24 is being analyzed in another post as we speak. viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4665
Wc1921vam24arrow.jpg
Wc1921vam24arrow.jpg (60.37 KiB) Viewed 1581 times
Here is my coins attempt to match:
gcs 21-P V-.JPG
gcs 21-P V-.JPG (303.71 KiB) Viewed 1772 times
What do you think? It could be my Rabbit Hole view but I see a match here; just a hint of those die scratches on both photos. If that is true, then the scribbles should match also. Right? I would post the two scribbles photos to compare but I am afraid I ran out of photo space here...I don't want to face the scrutiny at top of the Discussion Board.

It is Christmas!

Seasons Greetings to All you Great Folks!
Last edited by Geseas on Sat Jan 02, 2021 5:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.

vamsterdam
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Re: 1921-P VAMs 24A1-2-3 progression

Post by vamsterdam » Sun Dec 27, 2020 3:32 am

nice pictures and nice post but 24a3 is not a cud. it is a die chip. a cud affects the shank, and the face of the die. i have been pretty partial to 24a3 because it has so much to offer!

Geseas
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Re: 1921-P VAMs 24A1-2-3 progression

Post by Geseas » Mon Dec 28, 2020 8:03 pm

DHalladay wrote:
Thu Dec 24, 2020 3:53 pm
What is the relationship between the 24A and 24B series? I see none.
Their scribbles are different, which means the reverses are different.
Thanks Dennis, great fun for me here.

Your feeling is the two above photos are not 'common to each other'. My feeling is they may be simular...
There, I said it... I have just ignored, "When in doubt, don't"... a very good rule to use, IMO.
My reason for this is what I am calling the storyboard/stick. It's the branch all the 'right leg Talons' are on: i.e., Comparing Branches. I am also using the following photo; a comparison screenshot: (Intentionally out of focus) I am not qualified to do a scribbles comparison. It would take years of study. I am thinking I may be able to help someone that could be dealing with a R. hole, and in the process help myself.
Last edited by Geseas on Sat Jan 02, 2021 4:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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