Small update on 1900-O/CC varieties - Quantity of Carson rev dies revealed

[RogerB]

Recently discovered documents indicate that the original Carson City dies used for the O/CC variety came from the 1892-CC stock. Evidently Carson ordered more dies than needed that year and that the dies were shipped soft, Excess were returned after new 1893-CC dies had shipped, so the engraver kept 1892 reverses in his inventory. At that time no one knew about possible closure of Carson as a mint.

More to come, once I get the rest of the puzzle pieces - looking through all my old Cracker Jax boxes.

[alefzero]

So it appears a bit unlikely that those reverses produced any CC dollars before being reappropriated in New Orleans. Not entirely impossible, but probably not.

[RogerB]

Right. It seems they were never hardened at Carson and were returned to Philadelphia with mintmarks intact. If correct, that also eliminates any chance of finding a used Carson die that was softened, re-mintmarked, and then used a New Orleans in 1900.

[vampicker]

Sounds like you were right about the '1899 discovery' story being pure fabrication

[lewisr2]

I don't remember reading anything about the "1899 discovery" story. Please provide the ingo again.

[lewisr2]

Sorry
provide info -- not ingo.

[RogerB]

Well .... still searching for additional data, and then will do a more through analysis including why old dies were sent out in the first place.

[vampicker]

I've seen it a few places. Bowers refers to an 1899 return of leftover dies in his 'Silver Dollars and Trade Dollars of the United States A complete Encyclopedia' But a likely source of the story is Breen's Encyclopedia entry for the bold O/CC, his number 5671. He states six reverse dies were found during removal of the CC Assay Office furnishings. Like much of Breen's work, there's a better than 50-50 chance this story was nothing more than speculation presented as fact.

[RogerB]

Breen presented nothing to support his story. None of the presently available Carson Mint records or inventories support the story.

The 1899 story was popularized by quotation in "The Mint on Carson Street," one of the standard books about the Carson Mint.

[Vikingpwr67]

Just curious about this 1899 story. Where do I find it. I have a 1899-O that I swear is an o/cc but can’t find info on it anywhere. I feel that a 1899 -o/cc is possible to have been made.

[tnytrrs2004]

Can you attach some pictures.
Thanks

[SilverToken]

And how many 1899 micro o's have been discovered.... so far?

It stirs the brain

[RogerB]

Just curious about this 1899 story. Where do I find it. I have a 1899-O that I swear is an o/cc but can’t find info on it anywhere. I feel that a 1899 -o/cc is possible to have been made.

Look in Rusty Goe's book "The Mint on Carson Street." I asked him about it a couple of years ago and he said he got it from Breen's writings.

In preparation for closing Carson as a mint, the director requested a "schedule of the furniture, machinery and apparatus at your mint..." by the 24th. The inventory of 1899 shows no coinage dies, but lists two sets of dies (probably ingot marking dies) --

Ingot melting room…

54 One dollars silver ingot moulds,
30 Quarter-dollar ingot moulds,
12 $20. gold ingot moulds,
10 $10. gold ingot moulds,
10 $5. gold. ingot moulds,
17 $2.50 gold ingot moulds,
2 sets of dies,
4 Copper granulation buckets,

This inventory also has notations about certain equipment that will be sent to New Orleans. No coinage dies are mentioned.

It appears that similar inventories were prepared in 1898, 1899, and 1900 and likely other years.

[RogerB]

In going through the 1900 correspondence, there is the possibility that several pairs of dies were brought to NO by the engineer sent to correct problems with the NO dollar coinage and die failures. These might have been intended as "testing dies" and coins made from them were expected to be condemned. Since the problem at NO was quickly identified as improper annealing of planchets, the "test coins" became regular circulation pieces.

This is, of course, a highly speculative scenario and NOT backed by specific documentation.

When the Carson mint was decommissioned in 1893, all dies would have been returned to Philadelphia, just as was done at the end of every calendar year. No dies were made for Carson for CY 1894 or later.

[RogerB]

Recently scanned documents show that the Philadelphia Mint reported destruction of the following Carson Mint dies from 1893:

18940113 Dies destroyed from SF CC NO mints 1893_Page_6.jpg (197.15 KiB) Viewed 1034 times

The same report shows that reverse dies were retained for reissue from the following:

18940113 Dies destroyed from SF CC NO mints 1893_Page_2.jpg (153.37 KiB) Viewed 1034 times

We now know that out of 40 reverse dies returned by Carson Mint, only 5 had been used and were destroyed. We see earlier complaints from Philadelphia of Carson ordering an excessive quantity of dies.

Although Carson had been “closed” as a coinage mint, this could change at the whim of Congress. Engraver Barber was prudent to keep the unused CC dies (which was normal policy) in case the situation changed. It was not until 1899, when the Carson coinage equipment was sent to New Orleans, that the old CC reverse dies from 1893 became obsolete.

With 35 unused, but mintmarked dies on hand, it is also possible that the Engraver simply filled the mintmark on some of these dies, buffed the dies to smooth the surface and used them at Philadelphia or punched in a new mintmark for SF or NO.

So far, no one has reported a CC under punch on any silver dollar except 1900-O/CC – this now opens the possibility that “X/CC” might exist for any date from 1894-1899.

The “5-die” myth seems largely busted – replaced by a larger quandry.

[LateDateMorganGuy]

From my knowledge of metals, it seems unlikely the mint could "fill" a mint mark and them over-punch. The fill would fall out quickly, or to get it to "stick" would require heating the die so that the 'fill" would melt and bond with the base die metal. Heating the die to this point would likely cause damage to the devices and field in the nearby areas.

[RogerB]

They did much the same as your dentist when filling a cavity.

Soften the die. Undercut the original incuse CC. Fill with red steel wire. Tamp and smooth overfill. Punch new mintmark (or leave as-is). Buff die of needed. (Punching a new MM improves the mechanical lock between original steel and fill. Pressure during striking will either improve the bond or cause the filling to fail. (Now, don't chew on any hard candy until your tooth filling sets...)

This could work very well - or the filling might begin to dislodge with use. See 1880/79, 1900 O/CC, etc. We know of these only because the fill failed in part. We don't have the records to know how many dies were actually filled and reused.

Carson dies must have been especially easy to alter because they were shipped soft - at Carson's request. Unused dies returned at the end of 1893 were likely still soft. (See below)

Mint of the United States
Coiner’s Office.
Carson City, Nevada,

January 24, 1893

T.R. Hofer, Esq.,
Superintendent.
Sir:
In reply to yours of the 23d instant, enclosing a copy of letter received from the Director
of the Mint, also one form the Engraver, in regard to dies for the year 1892, I respectfully beg
leave to state that each and every die was accounted for, together with the number of pieces
struck; the value and when and why condemned, in a tabulated statement, sent to your office
January 4, 1893. In regard to the ordering of an excessive number of dies, I beg leave to offer the
following explanation: The dies for this Mint are ordered sent soft, and the hardening is done
here. This was found most expedient, as the hardened dies sent us were highly unsatisfactory –
many sinking and cracking when in use but a few moments. In hardening dies here they are
sometimes lost for use on account of cracking, especially if there be a flaw of any nature in the
texture of the steel. To make provision for any possible contingency – a larger number of dies
were ordered for 1892 than were absolutely required, our loss in hardening being extremely
small. Of the dies that were hardened the record of the number of pieces struck shows how
efficiently that operation is performed here. Trusting that this explanation will prove satisfactory
to you, I remain,

Respectfully yours,
C.H. Colburn,
Coiner.
[NARA RG104, Entry 1, Box 180]

[LateDateMorganGuy]

I don't buy it.

[vampicker]

In hardening dies here they are sometimes lost for use on account of cracking, especially if there be a flaw of any nature in the texture of the steel.

That excerpt from the above letter would seemingly contradict the idea of 'filling' a die

[Eschaton]

Carson Nebraska lolololol