Hammered 21... Can't nail it down tho + Which would u rather?

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CascadeChris
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Hammered 21... Can't nail it down tho + Which would u rather?

Post by CascadeChris » Wed Jul 22, 2020 3:04 pm

Check this sexy apple 🍎 girl out guys! I can count hair strands lol. And just look at those feathers! :shock: 😎

2 things aside showing it off.

1) I can't nail it down. Went down the "one and done" 21 Peace list and nada. Then did a brute force down the main list twice and nada again. Must have missed it. Any help would be appreciated. There's a long radial on rev from dot thru the U ending in the feathers that has almost (or barely) displaced into a break that should be a prime PUP for anyone that knows 21's like the back of their hand but I've also added pics of the usual attribution places for a 21. Thanks!

2) Which would you rather? Right now I have the weakly struck with a rim bump v1H in my complete Peace album, would you replace it with this hammerd beast? Wish it didn't have some light hairlines but the strike more than makes up for it....

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CascadeChris
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Re: Hammered 21... Can't nail it down tho + Which would u rather?

Post by CascadeChris » Wed Jul 22, 2020 3:06 pm

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CascadeChris
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Re: Hammered 21... Can't nail it down tho + Which would u rather?

Post by CascadeChris » Wed Jul 22, 2020 3:10 pm

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CascadeChris
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Re: Hammered 21... Can't nail it down tho + Which would u rather?

Post by CascadeChris » Wed Jul 22, 2020 3:11 pm

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messydesk
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Re: Hammered 21... Can't nail it down tho + Which would u rather?

Post by messydesk » Wed Jul 22, 2020 3:14 pm

CascadeChris wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 3:04 pm
...
2) Which would you rather? Right now I have the weakly struck with a rim bump v1H in my complete Peace album, would you replace it with this hammerd beast? Wish it didn't have some light hairlines but the strike more than makes up for it....
This is a perfect album coin. It doesn't look like it would grade, doesn't need to be in a slab due to value, yet it is attractive and needs to be appreciated for its above average strike.

It stands to reason that the well-struck 1921 Peace dollars will all come from one or two die pairs.
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Re: Hammered 21... Can't nail it down tho + Which would u rather?

Post by Longstrider » Wed Jul 22, 2020 3:48 pm

Nice. I'd take the one on the right. I lie. I'd take either. Thanks.🐍

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CascadeChris
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Re: Hammered 21... Can't nail it down tho + Which would u rather?

Post by CascadeChris » Wed Jul 22, 2020 3:58 pm

messydesk wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 3:14 pm

It stands to reason that the well-struck 1921 Peace dollars will all come from one or two die pairs.
So what you're saying is that I have a 50/50 shot this is an impaired matte proof? :o :o 8-) :lol:
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Re: Hammered 21... Can't nail it down tho + Which would u rather?

Post by messydesk » Wed Jul 22, 2020 4:33 pm

CascadeChris wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 3:58 pm
messydesk wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 3:14 pm

It stands to reason that the well-struck 1921 Peace dollars will all come from one or two die pairs.
So what you're saying is that I have a 50/50 shot this is an impaired matte proof? :o :o 8-) :lol:
No. I should have said well-struck business strikes. Proofs were made on a different press. We know there are well-struck business strikes and that they are few and far between. They don't occur randomly throughout production, but require a specific press setting, which has a context similar to that of a die pair (i.e., it's not changed unless necessary). For most of production, the coins produced were not well struck. Therefore, it is likely that the well-struck ones were from a very limited number of die pairs, as few as 1.
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Re: Hammered 21... Can't nail it down tho + Which would u rather?

Post by RogerB » Wed Jul 22, 2020 5:04 pm

messydesk wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 4:33 pm
CascadeChris wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 3:58 pm
messydesk wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 3:14 pm

It stands to reason that the well-struck 1921 Peace dollars will all come from one or two die pairs.
So what you're saying is that I have a 50/50 shot this is an impaired matte proof? :o :o 8-) :lol:
No. I should have said well-struck business strikes. Proofs were made on a different press. We know there are well-struck business strikes and that they are few and far between. They don't occur randomly throughout production, but require a specific press setting, which has a context similar to that of a die pair (i.e., it's not changed unless necessary). For most of production, the coins produced were not well struck. Therefore, it is likely that the well-struck ones were from a very limited number of die pairs, as few as 1.
Well -- not quite.
Referring only to circulation strike coins. We know from Morgan's letters that striking pressure was reduced after the first day of 1921 Peace dollar production. This was done because pressure used on the first day was excessive and caused numerous die failures and even "die shattering."

Thus, the likelihood of a coin with excellent detail being made on any day except the first, is quite small. There might be many die pairs involved from the first day and any could have made high detail coins. But, getting detail required both high pressure and a soft planchet - not, evidently, a common occurrence out of 100,000+ struck.

There is a table showing varying degrees of detail for 1921 dollars in the Guide Book of Peace Dollars, 4th edition. This is the best available information and I recommend collector use it instead of obsolete materials. See also "1921 Peace dollars-common areas of weakness" as posted on this site.

For the OP's reference here is a well struck 1921 Peace dollar. Arrows point to areas to examine for relief detail on a well-struck coin -- nearly all must be present. (The one posted is no better than 'above average.'')
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Re: Hammered 21... Can't nail it down tho + Which would u rather?

Post by VamHelsing » Wed Jul 22, 2020 6:32 pm

I'd keep the toner, hands down.

RogerB
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Re: Hammered 21... Can't nail it down tho + Which would u rather?

Post by RogerB » Thu Jul 23, 2020 1:49 am

PS: Of the OP's two coins the one on the right is preferable to me.

davidkclose
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Re: Hammered 21... Can't nail it down tho + Which would u rather?

Post by davidkclose » Fri Jul 24, 2020 12:32 am

I agree that the coin on the right is the more desirable coin. In the close-up at the top, notice that there are 3 rays between the leg feathers & wing, instead of the normal 2.

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CascadeChris
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Re: Hammered 21... Can't nail it down tho + Which would u rather?

Post by CascadeChris » Fri Jul 24, 2020 3:46 am

davidkclose wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 12:32 am
I agree that the coin on the right is the more desirable coin. In the close-up at the top, notice that there are 3 rays between the leg feathers & wing, instead of the normal 2.
Thanks Doc. Well all be.. Under a loupe in-hand its even a tad more pronounced!

I went down the list and checked every one that had pics of that area -or a rev LFCP- for an extra ray right there and didn't see one. Did I miss it? Do you know which this is or was it just a keen eyed observation?

Also, what's the latest word on Dalton in a couple weeks???
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Re: Hammered 21... Can't nail it down tho + Which would u rather?

Post by RogerB » Sat Jul 25, 2020 2:50 pm

CascadeChris wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 3:46 am
davidkclose wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 12:32 am
I agree that the coin on the right is the more desirable coin. In the close-up at the top, notice that there are 3 rays between the leg feathers & wing, instead of the normal 2.
Thanks Doc. Well all be.. Under a loupe in-hand its even a tad more pronounced!

I went down the list and checked every one that had pics of that area -or a rev LFCP- for an extra ray right there and didn't see one. Did I miss it? Do you know which this is or was it just a keen eyed observation?
These ray bits come and go depending on planchet softness, strike pressure, uniformity of metal flow, etc.

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CascadeChris
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Re: Hammered 21... Can't nail it down tho + Which would u rather?

Post by CascadeChris » Sat Jul 25, 2020 4:32 pm

Yeah, I was wondering if that "extra ray" die scratch was only showing on this example due to the hammered strike and if that is why I couldn't find it on any of the area pics or rev LFCPs going down the list. @messydesk @vampicker thoughts?
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Re: Hammered 21... Can't nail it down tho + Which would u rather?

Post by RogerB » Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:50 am

Reality check. The strike is not "hammered." Look at the illustrated table in the Peace dollar book for assistance. Here's another table that might help, also:
table.jpg
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messydesk
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Re: Hammered 21... Can't nail it down tho + Which would u rather?

Post by messydesk » Tue Jul 28, 2020 11:39 pm

All fully struck 1921 Peace dollars are well struck, but not all well struck 1921 Peace dollars are fully struck. The OP coin in question is clearly well struck, since it is struck better than most 1921 Peace dollars, which are less than well-struck, even if it is not fully struck. The term "hammered" implies different things to different people, and has not been standardized as a numismatic term. For better or for worse, TPGs have not gotten into designating strike quality of these as they have other period coins. I imagine such a superlative would be applied with sufficient separation in both a key spot of hair and all the wing and leg feathers. Absent such a designation, it is left to buyers to cherrypick for quality coins that are well-struck, and that gives collectors doing their homework an advantage.
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Re: Hammered 21... Can't nail it down tho + Which would u rather?

Post by RogerB » Thu Jul 30, 2020 7:47 pm

It is probably fortunate that TPGs have not gotten into designating details on 1921 Peace dollars....They've messed up so much else through ignorance that I'd hate to have yet another series obfuscated.

BTW - There are no 100% strike 1921 Peace dollars - not even the medal press proofs are fully complete. A fully struck coin would match the bronze model pictured in the book.

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Re: Hammered 21... Can't nail it down tho + Which would u rather?

Post by vampicker » Thu Jul 30, 2020 11:43 pm

"Hammered' isn't always a good thing....
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CascadeChris
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Re: Hammered 21... Can't nail it down tho + Which would u rather?

Post by CascadeChris » Thu Jul 30, 2020 11:49 pm

Is that image what I think it is @vampicker :shock: :o :lol: :?
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