Incredible 83s coming to market...

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CascadeChris
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Incredible 83s coming to market...

Post by CascadeChris » Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:14 am

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evensocome
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Re: Incredible 83s coming to market...

Post by evensocome » Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:19 am

Without looking I graded it 67+. I think it's more semi-PL than full PL, but market grading is to be expected on such an important coin. Truly a phenomenal coin.

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CascadeChris
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Re: Incredible 83s coming to market...

Post by CascadeChris » Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:36 am

evensocome wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:19 am
Without looking I graded it 67+. I think it's more semi-PL than full PL, but market grading is to be expected on such an important coin. Truly a phenomenal coin.
Wow. If you can grade a coin accurately in the superb gem level from static photographs that wasn't much more than a shot in the dark you're better than I am. The point scale on the 66-69 level is so miniscule and gets smaller within every point, and even smaller still for a + within those points, with one little tick in the wrong spot or something as simple as the luster or surfaces looking off when twirling it, which can only be assessed in hand, can shift the grade dramatically.. let alone getting into + territory. Mad props!
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messydesk
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Re: Incredible 83s coming to market...

Post by messydesk » Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:50 am

Phenomenal coin. I was wondering about the PL designation, too. The picture looks a little dead in that respect. Here's the TrueView that speaks better to the coin. Might still be a stretch for PL, but then I didn't see it in person. I'll have to dig out my Eliasberg catalog and check what it sold for back in '97.

Image
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DHalladay
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Re: Incredible 83s coming to market...

Post by DHalladay » Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:54 am

I agree with the 67.
Pluses pretty much never make any sense to me.
The PL I don't get.
When in doubt... don't.

VamHelsing
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Re: Incredible 83s coming to market...

Post by VamHelsing » Tue Jul 14, 2020 1:20 am

I agree with 67, don't see +. Also don't see PL fields... Ms Lib's face almost seems thumbed in the pics.

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CascadeChris
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Re: Incredible 83s coming to market...

Post by CascadeChris » Tue Jul 14, 2020 1:34 am

I think this coin could benefit from a professional conservation but that ain't ever happening :lol:

Well, never say never I suppose. What's that expensive gold coin that got screwed up, wasn't it a Stella? Then wasn't there a 93s that also went to hell with a pro conserv?
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vamnuke
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Re: Incredible 83s coming to market...

Post by vamnuke » Tue Jul 14, 2020 2:23 am

:o

JASONKFLO
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Re: Incredible 83s coming to market...

Post by JASONKFLO » Tue Jul 14, 2020 3:28 am

incredible looking coin
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RogerB
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Re: Incredible 83s coming to market...

Post by RogerB » Tue Jul 14, 2020 5:23 pm

Agree on the grade (per the photo) but not on PL. (PS: There is no such nonsense as "semi-PL")

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CascadeChris
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Re: Incredible 83s coming to market...

Post by CascadeChris » Tue Jul 14, 2020 5:31 pm

RogerB wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 5:23 pm
Agree on the grade (per the photo) but not on PL. (PS: There is no such nonsense as "semi-PL")
Oh, it exists. You know that Roger! 🤪

It basically means close to PL but not quite. Generally frosty but the mirror depth is just a relative few strikes away from when the dies were spitting out PL's. Then you have that gorgeous, short-lived, end stage of semi-PL when the dies are blooming moving from semi-PL to satiny business strike. Those die bloom strikes can be Insanly gorgeous. Hashtag marketing 101 😎
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blh74
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Re: Incredible 83s coming to market...

Post by blh74 » Wed Jul 15, 2020 4:31 am

messydesk wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:50 am
Phenomenal coin. I was wondering about the PL designation, too. The picture looks a little dead in that respect. Here's the TrueView that speaks better to the coin. Might still be a stretch for PL, but then I didn't see it in person. I'll have to dig out my Eliasberg catalog and check what it sold for back in '97.

Image
I dug out my Eliasberg auction catalog, it was a MS66 DMPL. I do not have the prices.

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messydesk
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Re: Incredible 83s coming to market...

Post by messydesk » Wed Jul 15, 2020 12:30 pm

$137,500 in the 4/97 Eliasberg sale.

I'm trying to decide whether or not the coin was dipped after the Eliasberg sale. There's a spot above the E in STATES on the coin now that wasn't in the photos. The toning described as "mottled light brown toning" looks different and there are a couple small spots on the obverse (near the 1st U in PLURIBUS, below the 8s) that don't show up in the Eliasberg catalog photos. The technique for taking the photos was quite different in the catalog, with the fields flat and white as though axial lighting was used.
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vamsterdam
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Re: Incredible 83s coming to market...

Post by vamsterdam » Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:18 pm

outside of some obverse and reverse spotting, this is one of the finest business strike morgan dollars graded. much nicer than many ms67's that i have seen.there must be hidden marks somewhere, because it is as nice or nicer than some of the ms68's that i have seen. amazing for an 1883s.

RogerB
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Re: Incredible 83s coming to market...

Post by RogerB » Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:20 pm

CascadeChris wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 5:31 pm
RogerB wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 5:23 pm
Agree on the grade (per the photo) but not on PL. (PS: There is no such nonsense as "semi-PL")
Oh, it exists. You know that Roger! 🤪

It basically means close to PL but not quite. Generally frosty but the mirror depth is just a relative few strikes away from when the dies were spitting out PL's. Then you have that gorgeous, short-lived, end stage of semi-PL when the dies are blooming moving from semi-PL to satiny business strike. Those die bloom strikes can be Insanly gorgeous. Hashtag marketing 101 😎
No. It's simply a way to "con" more money out of people. Eventually the differences slide away and the buyer has no pig and no poke for it. However, if TPGs defined objective measurement of surface reflectivity, there could be real value in PL, DMPL and the other unfounded opinions.

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CascadeChris
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Re: Incredible 83s coming to market...

Post by CascadeChris » Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:34 pm

RogerB wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:20 pm
CascadeChris wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 5:31 pm
RogerB wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 5:23 pm
Agree on the grade (per the photo) but not on PL. (PS: There is no such nonsense as "semi-PL")
Oh, it exists. You know that Roger! 🤪

It basically means close to PL but not quite. Generally frosty but the mirror depth is just a relative few strikes away from when the dies were spitting out PL's. Then you have that gorgeous, short-lived, end stage of semi-PL when the dies are blooming moving from semi-PL to satiny business strike. Those die bloom strikes can be Insanly gorgeous. Hashtag marketing 101 😎
No. It's simply a way to "con" more money out of people. Eventually the differences slide away and the buyer has no pig and no poke for it. However, if TPGs defined objective measurement of surface reflectivity, there could be real value in PL, DMPL and the other unfounded opinions.
I get your hard line view towards it. Its in the minority but you aren't alone. I do vehemently take issue with your characterization of using it to "con" buyers, however. Semi-PL surfaces do exist and its a way of describing the stage that looks very close to PL just not quite to TODAYS standards. And we'll just leave out the shifting scale of "gradeflation" when it comes to mirror depths. But to say that using a correct descriptor is "conning" people I take massive umbrage with but you're a numismatic researcher, not a dealer, so I can also understand where your lack of nuanced complexity is coming from regarding this issue.

PS, describing a coin as semi-PL does not automatically mean a higher final bid price either. Contrary to popular belief people notice beautiful coins and bid / pay accordingly whether a coin is described as semi-PL or not unless the photos are horrible. Today's internet buyers are much more savvy on average than most give them credit for when it comes to the old axiom "Buy the coin not the holder" or in this case "buy the coin not the descriptor" 😉
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neals384
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Re: Incredible 83s coming to market...

Post by neals384 » Thu Jul 16, 2020 2:19 pm

VAM 13?

DHalladay
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Re: Incredible 83s coming to market...

Post by DHalladay » Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:40 pm

I have always had a fondness for semi-PL coins. The main reason is the 'hard', crisp lustre they have. It's a look I really like – although it does make me pick up way more early S-Mint coins than I should! :lol:

Another reason is PLs tend to look a grade worse to me than their stated grade. Yet another is the 'wandering' use of the PL designation over time; there are a lot of coins with PL on the label that don't begin convince me.
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vampicker
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Re: Incredible 83s coming to market...

Post by vampicker » Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:49 pm

Forgive me for being unable to even muster one or two crocodile tears for the future owner of this piece. This whole conversation is akin to complaining about grades on 1913 V nickels. Nice to hold and look at, but that's as far as I'd go even if I had the cash in hand.

And Roger, it's only a matter of time before a couple of the services wander into PL+ designations. -PL wouldn't be far behind.
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PickNGrin
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Re: Incredible 83s coming to market...

Post by PickNGrin » Thu Jul 16, 2020 4:35 pm

Very much enjoy semi-pl coins. I buy them often. Very important to PL collectors on budgets. Tough date PL coins and and a lot of post 1900 date coins, typically don't have great mirrors.

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