Copyright Question about Variety subheadings

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PacificWR
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Re: Copyright Question about Variety subheadings

Post by PacificWR » Tue Jul 14, 2020 3:31 am

Mhomei wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 2:05 am
In this scenario
You would not need his written consent
Mitch is right here. Checked with the wife (she works for a law firm) and as long as you do not use a logo, try to imitate the person or sell for profit you should be just fine.

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Re: Copyright Question about Variety subheadings

Post by LateDateMorganGuy » Tue Jul 14, 2020 4:01 am

It seems the legal advice being given on this site is unequivocal. So I stand corrected apparently.

Has anyone here or those offering legal advice seen Leroy's agreement with Collector's Universe?

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Re: Copyright Question about Variety subheadings

Post by messydesk » Tue Jul 14, 2020 4:19 am

LateDateMorganGuy wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 4:01 am
It seems the legal advice being given on this site is unequivocal...
And worth every penny you pay for it.
Welcome to the VAMWorld 2.0 discussion boards. R.I.P. old VAMWorld.

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Re: Copyright Question about Variety subheadings

Post by blh74 » Tue Jul 14, 2020 5:31 am

LorenAlbert
I am a machinist. And yes I do sort all bolts as you suggested. I look forward telling my friends how granular I am. I can imagine the looks on their faces.

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Re: Copyright Question about Variety subheadings

Post by LorenAlbert » Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:00 am

blh74 wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 5:31 am
LorenAlbert
I am a machinist. And yes I do sort all bolts as you suggested. I look forward telling my friends how granular I am. I can imagine the looks on their faces.
I happen to have recently sorted machine bolts into an organizer. You need to make decisions how to label the drawers. Those decisions are not frivolous. The more finely granular; the more drawers that are needed. Practical constraints may be levied based on the numbers of drawers available and the number of labels you want to print/stick/read/scribbles. What is the highest order theme - length, girth, cap type, thread count, or maybe project? Working though this process constitutes creating a taxonomy.

I imagine you know, but the word "granular" without a qualifier is ambiguous. More granular might mean more coarse or more fine. Hence, I used "more finely granular" above. Your friends may appreciate an adjective (I am not certain that I used "adjective" correctly here. Unfortunately I passed out of bonehead English and was stuck studying poetry.).
Last edited by LorenAlbert on Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:38 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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Re: Copyright Question about Variety subheadings

Post by LorenAlbert » Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:18 am

LateDateMorganGuy wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 4:01 am
It seems the legal advice being given on this site is unequivocal. So I stand corrected apparently.
Has anyone here or those offering legal advice seen Leroy's agreement with Collector's Universe?
I have not seen the agreement. I don't think that it is clear, as you posted earlier, that LVA has the authority to grant permission. But, I am not looking for loopholes. Further, I don't know the ramifications if another organization inherits LVA's property and manages the property in a way that becomes awkward. I do not want to spend retirement time researching which class descriptions are the property of Collectors Universe and which are the property of LVA's estate. Nor do I want to spend my lunch hours in lawyer's offices. I would rather sort bolts.

I am idealistic about public domain and the demise of copyright brought on by the Internet. Nonetheless, I have had copyrighted property infringed. I lost sleep over it. I have been rightfully accused of copyright infringement (not my act, but my responsibility). I lost sleep over it. This thread has been entirely helpful from the standpoint of both, academic understanding and practical decision making. I thank everyone for contributing.
Last edited by LorenAlbert on Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:00 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Copyright Question about Variety subheadings

Post by LorenAlbert » Tue Jul 14, 2020 11:56 am

messydesk wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 4:19 am
LateDateMorganGuy wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 4:01 am
It seems the legal advice being given on this site is unequivocal...
And worth every penny you pay for it.
What puzzles me most about this thread is not the legal ramifications. Except for a couple of early posts, I am bewildered by the lack of encouraging comment by those I view as closest to LVA.

I expected that the prospect for additional exposure to LVA's taxonomy might be welcomed. But maybe not. Perhaps oversight comes into play. Perhaps the vagaries of dealing with intellectual property; morally or legally comes into play. Whatever may be in play, if anything beyond reality; I sense a red flag.

Then there is the ambiguity of who has the authority to grant permission, needed or not; now, or in the future. Granted permission, or not; fair use, or not; Creative Commons, or not; I prefer to spend my lunch hours creating content over visiting lawyer's offices. Maybe I would need to be prepared for the latter. Maybe not. Maybe I tidy up the fruit and vegetable aisle. It seems a shame to maybe not build on existing foundations. Thank you to everyone for commenting.
Last edited by LorenAlbert on Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Copyright Question about Variety subheadings

Post by PacificWR » Tue Jul 14, 2020 11:57 am

LateDateMorganGuy wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 4:01 am
It seems the legal advice being given on this site is unequivocal. So I stand corrected apparently.

Has anyone here or those offering legal advice seen Leroy's agreement with Collector's Universe?
Hey Alan, you might be supprised. Think of the word VAM.

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Re: Copyright Question about Variety subheadings

Post by Kissov » Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:08 pm


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Re: Copyright Question about Variety subheadings

Post by LorenAlbert » Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:32 pm

Kissov wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:08 pm
This
I have read many documents of this nature, but none as succinct and as understandable as this one. Thanks.

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Re: Copyright Question about Variety subheadings

Post by Kissov » Tue Jul 14, 2020 11:02 pm

Glad you found it useful.

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Re: Copyright Question about Variety subheadings

Post by LorenAlbert » Tue Jul 14, 2020 11:05 pm

Another try. This table on this external page?

1883-O: Cross-references From Die Number to Associated VAM Die Classifications and Varieties
OD ID#RD ID#ODCRDCObverse Die MarkersReverse Die MarkersVAM#
III2-0001C3-0001III2-1C3aTrapezoidal chip T of LIBERTY MM right, low, and tilted leftVAM-1
III2-0002C3-0002III2-1C3aThreadlike impression foreheadFFG right and left wing tipsVAM-1
Die Classifications and VAM designations are © Leroy Van Allen, Comprehensive Catalog and Encyclopedia of Morgan and Peace Dollars, 1991.


The number of rows in the series version of this table would be limited by my 83O/98O collections. I have the vast majority of listed VAMs for both series.

It is dawning on me that I might be asking the wrong question. I have an idea about the legal matters. I believe that I have naively put the cart before the horse.

I have failed to ask whether the curators of LVA's legacy see value in my gesture. For me, this is not about what LVA's taxonomy can do for me. This is about what I can do for LVA's taxonomy.

This is an evolving and world readable collaborative project that changes on a daily basis. I can't, realistically spend my time seeking permission to fart. I love humus. The administrative overhead would be impractical. Neither my ego nor my pocket book are in play here. But the table templates are in play. From my point of view, the spirit of my gesture is a positive for the community. Perhaps the community does not share my point of view. Someone, perhaps someone comfortable to represent LVA and the SSDC; are the curators of LVA's taxonomy receptive to my gesture?
Last edited by LorenAlbert on Wed Jul 15, 2020 5:01 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Copyright Question about Variety subheadings

Post by PacificWR » Tue Jul 14, 2020 11:34 pm

Kissov wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:08 pm
This
Ditto!

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Re: Copyright Question about Variety subheadings

Post by alefzero » Wed Jul 15, 2020 12:33 am

https://www.societyofauthors.org/SOA/Me ... ssions.pdf

Two key issues are "fair dealing" and substantial use. An abstract that uses only as much as is necessary for purpose and does not infringe on the market of the original work is roughly the measure.

In the case of VAMs, is it further complicated because the rights to the big VAM phonebook was sold off to PCGS. Leroy retains some rights, presumably the descriptions, but apparently not the photos. VAMworld was given permission to republish all of the descriptions but only the images from LVA after the last edition of the book was published.

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Re: Copyright Question about Variety subheadings

Post by PacificWR » Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:03 am

alefzero wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 12:33 am
https://www.societyofauthors.org/SOA/Me ... ssions.pdf

Two key issues are "fair dealing" and substantial use. An abstract that uses only as much as is necessary for purpose and does not infringe on the market of the original work is roughly the measure.

In the case of VAMs, is it further complicated because the rights to the big VAM phonebook was sold off to PCGS. Leroy retains some rights, presumably the descriptions, but apparently not the photos. VAMworld was given permission to republish all of the descriptions but only the images from LVA after the last edition of the book was published.
One of the key items here is market.

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Re: Copyright Question about Variety subheadings

Post by alefzero » Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:22 am

True. If the work degrades the market for the original work, it infringes on it. But one might ask the uncomfortable question as to whether VAMworld would make it difficult for CU (the owner of the book) to sell VAM Encyclopedias.
Last edited by alefzero on Wed Jul 15, 2020 2:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Copyright Question about Variety subheadings

Post by LateDateMorganGuy » Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:36 am

To me, this is interesting. All I did was suggest that Loren check with Leroy. I generally have provided Leroy that courtesy in the past. I am amazed that this thread had dived into a legal discussion of copyright. Common courtesy was my intention, not necessarily a legal interpretation on my part. I don't see Leroy running around suing folks.

But some may take exception to what I just said and said in past posts to this thread (as usual).

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Re: Copyright Question about Variety subheadings

Post by messydesk » Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:50 am

alefzero wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:22 am
True. It the work degrades the market for the original work, it infringes on it. But one might ask the uncomfortable question as to whether VAMworld would make it difficult for CU (the owner of the book) to sell VAM Encyclopedias.
It actually might make it easier. VAMWorld has arguably increased the demand for information about VAMs and has brought people into the hobby. If there were to be a new printing of the VAM book today, there would be much more demand for it than there would be had VAMWorld never come into existence. The attribution parts may not be the most useful, but there is a lot more to that book than that. If CU were to reprint everything except chapters 8 and 14, it would still be over 200 pages of really good information. Chapters 8 and 14 could be printed as a separate volume.
Welcome to the VAMWorld 2.0 discussion boards. R.I.P. old VAMWorld.

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Re: Copyright Question about Variety subheadings

Post by alefzero » Wed Jul 15, 2020 2:08 am

While that may be true, anecdotal speculation doesn't carry much water to the judge. Not that I think there is an issue. CU also does well to have an active Morgan and Peace dollar collector and dealer base, fostered by us here. The auction companies do as well. Feet do not work well in target practice.

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Re: Copyright Question about Variety subheadings

Post by blh74 » Wed Jul 15, 2020 5:19 am

LateDateMorganGuy wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:36 am
To me, this is interesting. All I did was suggest that Loren check with Leroy. I generally have provided Leroy that courtesy in the past. I am amazed that this thread had dived into a legal discussion of copyright. Common courtesy was my intention, not necessarily a legal interpretation on my part. I don't see Leroy running around suing folks.

But some may take exception to what I just said and said in past posts to this thread (as usual).
I agree totally with you. I like your common sense attitude of respecting Leroy`s work.

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