Copyright Question about Variety subheadings

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LorenAlbert
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Copyright Question about Variety subheadings

Post by LorenAlbert » Sun Jul 12, 2020 3:01 pm

I am working on a table of cross-references from die numbers to die classifications and varieties. The die numbers are unique to our studies. Am I allowed to use the variety subheadings verbatim? For example:

1883-O Series: Cross-references From Die Number to Class and Variety
OD#RD#ODCRDCDie Class Combination, Reeds, Interest, and RarityVariety Description
11III2-1C3a1 (revised)III2 1- C3a (Normal Die) (181) I-1 R-5VAM-1 Normal Die
22III2-1C3a1 (revised)III2 1- C3a (Normal Die) (181) I-1 R-5VAM-1 Normal Die


This table provides a summary of "multiple die pairs may exist" for this external page.
Last edited by LorenAlbert on Sun Jul 12, 2020 7:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Longstrider
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Re: Copyright Question about Variety subheadings

Post by Longstrider » Sun Jul 12, 2020 6:11 pm

Nice looking table. Clean and easy to read. I hope you can use them as is. Good luck. Thanks🐍

shortnock
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Re: Copyright Question about Variety subheadings

Post by shortnock » Sun Jul 12, 2020 6:27 pm

Wow! This is very, very impressive work. Killer pictures...loaded with information. Congratulations for innovating idea.
Refrain from computing the total number of poultry... before the process of incubation has fully materialized.

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LorenAlbert
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Re: Copyright Question about Variety subheadings

Post by LorenAlbert » Sun Jul 12, 2020 7:14 pm

shortnock wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 6:27 pm
Wow! This is very, very impressive work. Killer pictures...loaded with information. Congratulations for innovating idea.
Please know that the work you saw is a collaboration of several of us. I used "I" because I uniquely take responsibility for the copyright implications. Thank you for commenting.

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PacificWR
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Re: Copyright Question about Variety subheadings

Post by PacificWR » Sun Jul 12, 2020 9:19 pm

Very impressive work Loren. I take this as a hint I need to create some more SDP pages. Hope to have the time before long.
Last edited by PacificWR on Sun Jul 12, 2020 11:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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LateDateMorganGuy
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Re: Copyright Question about Variety subheadings

Post by LateDateMorganGuy » Sun Jul 12, 2020 11:22 pm

Here is my opinion based on working with Leroy for over the past 11 years.

1. Anything you use that comes out of the Encyclopedia or Supplements needs his permission.
2. Ask Leroy via email or snail mail first if you can use his copyrighted material, i.e., die classifications. I would show him what you plan to do and how his work will be incorporated.
3. Give LVA and AGM credit for the use of their work in your work, and cross reference their work in an obvious way.
4. Run the draft "final" product by him prior to using in a public forum.
5. Keep record of your correspondence with him as a record.

I have never had Leroy refuse to allow me use of his work. But I have been spanked a few times in the process.

RogerB
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Re: Copyright Question about Variety subheadings

Post by RogerB » Sun Jul 12, 2020 11:23 pm

An "anonymous" copyright claim is very difficult to enforce. All contributors should be listed if you are serious about claiming copyright. Also, have you looked at the creative commons and educational exclusions?

Also the phrase "multiple die pairs may exist" should read "multiple die pairs might exist." "May" indicates permission and "might" indicates possibility.

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LateDateMorganGuy
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Re: Copyright Question about Variety subheadings

Post by LateDateMorganGuy » Mon Jul 13, 2020 12:05 am

You could always consult with a lawyer like Mitch did:) Might be less expensive to follow my advice.

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LorenAlbert
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Re: Copyright Question about Variety subheadings

Post by LorenAlbert » Mon Jul 13, 2020 1:05 am

RogerB wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 11:23 pm
An "anonymous" copyright claim is very difficult to enforce. All contributors should be listed if you are serious about claiming copyright. Also, have you looked at the creative commons and educational exclusions?
I have studied the various social media platform agreements, including Creative Commons. Mostly, from the standpoint of photographic images. I do not seek to opportunistically claim that someone has foregone copyright, despite that they may have, by using various social media platforms. Clearly, the safest approach is to keep everything original material.

Regardless of legal technicalities, the Golden Rule reigns supreme for me. My lawyer is a little more particular. Since the advent of the Internet, I have been put on the embarrassing short end of copyright infringement and do not wish to repeat the experience. I am asked by publishers to, in effect, give up my intellectual property for pennies. I decline. I would rather give it up for free in the public domain than have it gather dust on the shelf while I am underneath the garden.

Alan's comment that he has been "spanked" is reason enough to dissuade me. On the one hand, reinventing the wheel is entirely inefficient. On the other hand, life is short; I want to create content; not defend it. I am not risking copyright infringement if there are significant questions raised by either the legal rule or the Golden Rule.

In my view, explicitly using LVA's established taxonomy furthers the VAM hobby and LVA's legacy. To not use the taxonomy is counterproductive and ironic; but likely imperative. Thank you for comments.

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LorenAlbert
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Re: Copyright Question about Variety subheadings

Post by LorenAlbert » Mon Jul 13, 2020 1:45 am

LateDateMorganGuy wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 12:05 am
You could always consult with a lawyer like Mitch did:) Might be less expensive to follow my advice.
Recently, I have had as many as 4 lawyers concurrently tapping my checking account. Best money I ever spent. I doubt that I can realistically follow your advice; but I shall advocate heeding your advice. Keep it original. Seems a shame though.

For the past five years, Ron and I have restricted the site to original material. We need to continue down that road. Thus, we might (not "may" Roger) need to evolve a new taxonomy for the public domain in order to not be shackled by legal matters. Should be fun - classification versus die pair. Currently, our collaborative studies link back to VAMWorld for LVA/SSDC content.

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LateDateMorganGuy
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Re: Copyright Question about Variety subheadings

Post by LateDateMorganGuy » Mon Jul 13, 2020 1:54 am

I try to keep my VAMming simple. Not sure why your approach seems so complicated, to me anyway.

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alefzero
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Re: Copyright Question about Variety subheadings

Post by alefzero » Mon Jul 13, 2020 2:33 am

Extracts are covered with the "fair use" provision. That is useful reviews or things like auction lot descriptions of individual coins. A full date die study might be beyond the limit though.

There is also a problem in that CU owns the Encyclopedia rights last I knew. This is why we cannot use the images for some of the missing VAMs that made it into the book listings. I know one, in particular, that I have been looking for since the 1980s or so that is questionable whether it actually exists.

On a tangent, I was wondering if anyone captured images and information on that 1880-O (actually not an O mint mark) VAM-2A "Impaled Eagle" rediscovery. It was a knofed coin that made it into the original listings. Was a considerable discussion on the old VAMworld when it arose on eBay and was bought for a good money. I seem to recall it was sent to Leroy. So he would have the time frame and some photos. Might have had a Coin World write-up. I forget. Not sure if I did any eBay screen grabs of the auction. The VW discuss was probably lost though.

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LateDateMorganGuy
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Re: Copyright Question about Variety subheadings

Post by LateDateMorganGuy » Mon Jul 13, 2020 2:57 am

I am sure others can say the same thing. I knew the individual that owned the Impaled Eagle that won it off of EBay. He had a lot of official paperwork with it going way back, including paperwork from LVA when it resurfaced. It was all put into a nice collectible format. The coin in hand was awesome, but the whole paperwork collection was a mind blower. I saw all of this at a Central States Coin Show many years ago sitting in the lobby outside the bourse.

Says something about going to coin shows and sharing with friends. Like Forest said, "Life is like a box of chocolates, you never know what you are going to get".

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LorenAlbert
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Re: Copyright Question about Variety subheadings

Post by LorenAlbert » Mon Jul 13, 2020 5:30 am

LateDateMorganGuy wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 1:54 am
I try to keep my VAMming simple. Not sure why your approach seems so complicated, to me anyway.
What you do, that I am aware of, is elegant (simple). As you have stated in previous posts, VAMming is secondary to what you do. A consequence. Or even an afterthought. Classification adds a layer.

For me, there is value in die classification. I enjoy the concept. But classification requires an investment. I know that you know this more so than me. My "approach," in my view, is to simply to follow LVA's original classification taxonomy as described in The Encyclopedia. I have invested countless hours in study.

I knew when I asked the question posed by this thread what the answer was likely to be. As Alefzero pointed out, it seems that not even LVA can grant permission. I knew this. Nonetheless, I had to go there because I am about to, begrudgingly, reinvent the wheel for a series.

blh74
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Re: Copyright Question about Variety subheadings

Post by blh74 » Mon Jul 13, 2020 5:55 am

One thing is for sure here. If I do not know what a word is I look it up. You speak of classification taxonomy. So now I am more confused. Taxonomy is a branch of biology that classifies all living things. I learned something new today Thank you very much!

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LorenAlbert
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Re: Copyright Question about Variety subheadings

Post by LorenAlbert » Mon Jul 13, 2020 10:10 am

blh74 wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 5:55 am
One thing is for sure here. If I do not know what a word is I look it up. You speak of classification taxonomy. So now I am more confused. Taxonomy is a branch of biology that classifies all living things. I learned something new today Thank you very much!
You might find that the word, not the field, "taxonomy" can be correctly applied to a classification strategy for non-living things. How granular are you with your bolt collection? Do length, girth, cap type, thread pitch each get a separate drawer or a separate cabinet? Another word that might be helpful for some of us to not take for granted is "variety." Maybe a trip to the grocery store.

Apples and oranges tend to be in the same aisle. Varieties of apples (McIntosh, Granny Jones) tend be be in adjacent bins. Same for oranges (Navel, Valencia). What about limes? Limes are in the aisle, but are limes a variety of apples or oranges? Are limes a fruit? Are limes and oranges, but not apples, a variety of citrus fruits? Why? Who decided? What were the arguments? You notice an orange on the floor. From the fruit aisle or the vegetable aisle? You decide to be a good patron and put it back in a bin. Which bin? The oranges in each bin kind of look the same. You first need to attribute it to determine the variety. Or call the manager. Or, send it to ANACS. Or, ask for a sticker.

For those who might have read the prior paragraph; there is an empty nest. It should be corrected unless it is a proactive placeholder. It is not. It is a brain fart. It should be killed. After intense study, and considerable expense, I determined that Granny Jones and Granny Smith are duplicates. Only one bin is warranted. But now I need to find two credible authorities who contradict each other on the attribution so that I can have a third authority kill Granny Jones. Truthfully, I have nothing against Granny Jones except that she never existed in the first place.

Figuring out the fruit aisle at the grocery store might be more difficult than LVA's taxonomy. But, less intimidating. I am truly amazed at what Van Allen and Mallis came up with as young men.

oldcollector
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Re: Copyright Question about Variety subheadings

Post by oldcollector » Mon Jul 13, 2020 2:28 pm

OMG I thought vamming was fun

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LorenAlbert
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Re: Copyright Question about Variety subheadings

Post by LorenAlbert » Mon Jul 13, 2020 11:03 pm

Bearing in mind that nothing is being sold; would the following table, with acknowledgment, still require written permission if published on this external page?

1883-O Series: Cross-references From Die Number to Class and Variety
OD#RD#ODCRDCDie Class Combination, Reeds, Interest, and RarityVariety Description
11III2-1C3a1 (revised)III2 1- C3a (Normal Die) (181) I-1 R-5VAM-1 Normal Die
22III2-1C3a1 (revised)III2 1- C3a (Normal Die) (181) I-1 R-5VAM-1 Normal Die
Die classification and variety descriptions are © Leroy Van Allen, Comprehensive Catalog and Encyclopedia of Morgan and Peace Dollars, 1991.

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LateDateMorganGuy
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Re: Copyright Question about Variety subheadings

Post by LateDateMorganGuy » Tue Jul 14, 2020 1:21 am

Maybe I am missing the point, but I thought it was clear that only Leroy can answer that question. Not trying to be difficult, just if I was in your shoes, I would run it by him.

Mhomei
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Re: Copyright Question about Variety subheadings

Post by Mhomei » Tue Jul 14, 2020 2:05 am

In this scenario
You would not need his written consent

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