Overdate VAM-20

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ljs123
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Overdate VAM-20

Post by ljs123 » Fri Jul 10, 2020 9:14 pm

Okay so it's not a 98-O VAM-20. I wish it was a 98-O.
But I'm still very happy to get this VAM-20. :D I have a few 1891-O VAM-14As, so I have been looking for a VAM-20 to go along with the 14As. This is the first one that I have come across in a few years of watching I might have over paid. I really don't know because I have no idea what others think it's worth. All I knew was it was the first one that I have seen, so I had to get it.
So, here is the money shot. If anyone wants to see other photos, let me know.

ljs-91o-VAM20-obv1.jpg
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vampicker
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Re: Overdate VAM-20

Post by vampicker » Fri Jul 10, 2020 11:09 pm

Great variety that might already be on tap for next year's list
often the crusher of hopes and dreams

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ljs123
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Re: Overdate VAM-20

Post by ljs123 » Sat Jul 11, 2020 12:58 am

vampicker wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 11:09 pm
Great variety that might already be on tap for next year's list

JR isn’t always a Crusher of dreams.


E8B37D6A-4B60-4CF1-9395-6B723483710F.gif
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alefzero
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Re: Overdate VAM-20

Post by alefzero » Sat Jul 11, 2020 2:09 am

That's a great VAM that has flown under the radar for a while. I do not believe I have seen one and it appears that we really could use a BU specimen. Putting it on the annual list could shake one out.

Do the known examples exhibit the corresponding obverse clashing? (Or with no reverse clashing?) Was the reverse instead inherited from the 14A pairing? I might still have a few of those to look at. The position of the mint mark would, of course, be pretty important. The clash position is pretty close if I recall. But the listings are C³g vs C³j.

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ljs123
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Re: Overdate VAM-20

Post by ljs123 » Sat Jul 11, 2020 2:38 am

alefzero wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 2:09 am
That's a great VAM that has flown under the radar for a while. I do not believe I have seen one and it appears that we really could use a BU specimen. Putting it on the annual list could shake one out.

Do the known examples exhibit the corresponding obverse clashing? (Or with no reverse clashing?) Was the reverse instead inherited from the 14A pairing? I might still have a few of those to look at. The position of the mint mark would, of course, be pretty important. The clash position is pretty close if I recall. But the listings are C³g vs C³j.

John,
Thanks for your comments.
My 20 has no obverse clashing.
It is my opinion that it is the VAM-14A reverse. That is why I have been looking for a 20 for so long. I have a few 14As, so I wanted a 20 to join my 14As. I’m not really an overdate guy. I only have access to my au-53 14A right now, but I will take some photos of that 14A and my 20 as soon as I can.

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Re: Overdate VAM-20

Post by alefzero » Sat Jul 11, 2020 2:40 am

Looked at my 14A. The die scratches inside the bow look very much the same. I do not see the TED-wing crack on the full coin reverse shot on the VAM-20 page here though. What an evil mimic for the die. (These images are from my VAM-14A.)
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bjsilverfox
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Re: Overdate VAM-20

Post by bjsilverfox » Sat Jul 11, 2020 3:15 am

Great pick and still on my list to go with my 14A.

lured_in_again
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Re: Overdate VAM-20

Post by lured_in_again » Sat Jul 11, 2020 3:22 am

Nice pick, there aren't a lot of VAM 20s out there and I have latched onto about every one I have seen the last few years. I'll dig a couple of them and a couple of VAM 14As out and compare a few cracks / etc. I have started a writeup on the relationship between 14, 14A, and 20. I believe there is also a marriage in there having to do with VAM 1D..... I'll dig into my notes this weekend. Does your example have the die gouges on the upper obverse above R and B in pluribus? I have an example that I have been waiting to send LVA that should be VAM 20A.

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ljs123
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Re: Overdate VAM-20

Post by ljs123 » Sat Jul 11, 2020 3:43 am

John, I do not think it is an evil mimic. I took one quick photo of the mm. I would not call it high.

ljs-91o-VAM20-rev1a.jpg
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Re: Overdate VAM-20

Post by ljs123 » Sat Jul 11, 2020 3:48 am

lured_in_again wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 3:22 am
Nice pick, there aren't a lot of VAM 20s out there and I have latched onto about every one I have seen the last few years. I'll dig a couple of them and a couple of VAM 14As out and compare a few cracks / etc. I have started a writeup on the relationship between 14, 14A, and 20. I believe there is also a marriage in there having to do with VAM 1D..... I'll dig into my notes this weekend. Does your example have the die gouges on the upper obverse above R and B in pluribus? I have an example that I have been waiting to send LVA that should be VAM 20A.

My coin has a gouge between the R & I of PLURIBUS coming out of the denticles. But it also looks like the gouge took a hit.

ljs-91o-VAM20-obv3.jpg
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lured_in_again
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Re: Overdate VAM-20

Post by lured_in_again » Sat Jul 11, 2020 3:58 am

There should be another similar gouge over by the B or I, don't remember offhand which letter. That is a gouge, not found on all VAM 20s - It will likely get a new listing of VAM 20A (of course up to LVA) but my example is an AU 58 if I remember correctly. I'll try to get by the bank and pull them for photos. The gouge you show continues down toward the LIB part of the headband.

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ljs123
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Re: Overdate VAM-20

Post by ljs123 » Sat Jul 11, 2020 3:59 am

lured_in_again wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 3:22 am
Nice pick, there aren't a lot of VAM 20s out there and I have latched onto about every one I have seen the last few years. I'll dig a couple of them and a couple of VAM 14As out and compare a few cracks / etc. I have started a writeup on the relationship between 14, 14A, and 20. I believe there is also a marriage in there having to do with VAM 1D..... I'll dig into my notes this weekend. Does your example have the die gouges on the upper obverse above R and B in pluribus? I have an example that I have been waiting to send LVA that should be VAM 20A.

I look forward to reading your write up when you finish.

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ljs123
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Re: Overdate VAM-20

Post by ljs123 » Sat Jul 11, 2020 4:05 am

lured_in_again wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 3:58 am
There should be another similar gouge over by the B or I, don't remember offhand which letter. That is a gouge, not found on all VAM 20s - It will likely get a new listing of VAM 20A (of course up to LVA) but my example is an AU 58 if I remember correctly. I'll try to get by the bank and pull them for photos. The gouge you show continues down toward the LIB part of the headband.
Thank you for pointing it out. The gouge does go into the head. And there is a second gouge above the S.
I would offer to loan you my coin for your submission, but it sounds like you have all you need.

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Re: Overdate VAM-20

Post by lured_in_again » Sat Jul 11, 2020 4:10 am

Did a little digging here on VW - link to an old posting I did on some assorted 1891 o photos, the pics of the VAM 20 gouges are among them. viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1021&p=8735&hilit=1 ... M+20#p8735

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Re: Overdate VAM-20

Post by alefzero » Sat Jul 11, 2020 4:15 am

lured_in_again wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 4:10 am
Did a little digging here on VW - link to an old posting I did on some assorted 1891 o photos, the pics of the VAM 20 gouges are among them. viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1021&p=8735&hilit=1 ... M+20#p8735
That cannot be a VAM-20. Look at the date position.

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Re: Overdate VAM-20

Post by lured_in_again » Sat Jul 11, 2020 4:44 am

Sorry for the confusion. Those photos were just a practice page for learning to post photos on the new VW2.0 The 2 photos of the gouges are of a VAM 20. The letter S transfer and the gouge @ date were on another coin which was sent in to LVA hoping to be a new VAM number, but came back as a new VAM 10A. The other photo is of a VAM 15B, retained cud. Again, sorry for the confusion, just wanted to show a link to the gouges of VAM 20 link.

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Re: Overdate VAM-20

Post by lured_in_again » Sat Jul 11, 2020 2:23 pm

One of the puzzlers in this mess is the VAM 14, I have never found one.... Does anyone have a VAM 14 in a holder? None listed in the registry and the photo on the VAM 14 page shows a die crack to the right of the O in dollar that appears more faintly on one of my VAM 14a, but barely if at all on another example. This leads me to question whether the VAM 14 in the photo on that page was actually a VAM 14a but not noted at the time. There are no photos of the VAM 14 obverse. Both of these photos are from 2 different VAM 14a
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Re: Overdate VAM-20

Post by lured_in_again » Sat Jul 11, 2020 2:28 pm

Photos of the gouges on my VAM 20. There are 2 photos of each showing the area by the denticles and the extent of the gouges inward to main design. On the wheat leaf gouge, it continues into the I of LIBERTY.
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ljs123
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Re: Overdate VAM-20

Post by ljs123 » Sat Jul 11, 2020 3:30 pm

Here are the mm locations. I'm pretty sure VAM-14A and 20 is the same reverse. Not sure why they are listed as C3j and 3Cg. I really don't know why VAM-20 is listed as a High O.
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VAM-14A mm
ljs-91o-VAM-14A-rev1a.jpg
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VAM-20 mm
ljs-91o-VAM20-rev1.jpg
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Re: Overdate VAM-20

Post by lured_in_again » Sat Jul 11, 2020 3:55 pm

I would agree they are the same reverse. The VAM 20 reverse was the earlier stage. I have in my notes that the gouge at the lower left wing of VAM 14a is not on the VAM 20. Photos of each one follow.....
jae_1891o_20.wing.2.jpg
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