Page 1 of 2

1890-O MS62 Are theses feeder finger marks?

Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 11:27 pm
by pete$298
Purchased this coin online hoping for a 1B. Coin in hand I still believe it's a 1B, but in the less desirable LDS. When examining the coin the ear and hair have a very weak strike and there are parallel lines running from the cheek into the ear and hair and on into the cotton boles. Are these caused by feeder fingers , a bad planchet , or something else. I'm also interested in opinions on the VAM designation.

Thanks for all help. Sorry about pic quality.

Re: 1890-O MS62 Are theses feeder finger marks?

Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 11:30 pm
by pete$298
more pics

Re: 1890-O MS62 Are theses feeder finger marks?

Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 11:32 pm
by pete$298
And a couple more

Re: 1890-O MS62 Are theses feeder finger marks?

Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 12:37 am
by messydesk
Assuming you're referring to the marks across the ear, those are not feed finger marks. These are known as "roller marks," and they come from when the silver strip was drawn out to planchet thickness. Normally they're struck out of the coin, but in this case of your 90-O, which has a poor strike (even for a 90-O), they weren't. Feed finger marks on a Morgan dollar show up only above the eagle's wings near the tips.

Re: 1890-O MS62 Are theses feeder finger marks?

Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 1:51 am
by alefzero
Looks like a 28A. Check for the denticle impressions of the 28B.

Re: 1890-O MS62 Are theses feeder finger marks?

Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 3:28 am
by pete$298
Thanks for the information on the "roller marks", Messydesk.

alefzero, Thanks for looking. I can't see the possible O top in the denticles or impressions by the bow.

Re: 1890-O MS62 Are theses feeder finger marks?

Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 4:39 am
by alefzero
I do not recall having had a 28, 28A, or 28B, surprisingly. Some of those MPDs are questionable and also not visible throughout the entire production on some VAMs (like the 1882 VAM-24 obverse die).

Did not notice you said VAM-1B in the OP. The 1B and the 28A look very close.

Re: 1890-O MS62 Are theses feeder finger marks?

Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:44 pm
by ljs123
I first thought that your coin was a 28A or 28B. But I now think your coin is a 1B.
When I can add photos I will show why.
I also noticed that the LFCP on the 28B page says it was moved there from the 1B page. I'm thinking the LFCP should be moved back to the 1B page. Just my thought.

Re: 1890-O MS62 Are theses feeder finger marks?

Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 10:34 pm
by pete$298
ljs123, Thanks for your thoughts. Look forward to seeing your pictures when you have time to post them.

Re: 1890-O MS62 Are theses feeder finger marks?

Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 10:38 pm
by ljs123
pete$298 wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 10:34 pm
ljs123, Thanks for your thoughts. Look forward to seeing your pictures when you have time to post them.
Hi Pete,
Time is not the issue. For some reason, I can't post photos at this time. It is noted in another post.
JB will look into the issue tonight.
Keep posting your coins,
Lee

Re: 1890-O MS62 Are theses feeder finger marks?

Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:56 am
by ljs123
The easiest way for me to show why I think your coin is a VAM-1B, is to focus on the st clash in the hair vee.
The first photo will highlight the distance from the hair vee to the s clash.
The second is the highlighted 1B.
The third is the 28A plate photo

Clashed%20ST-ljs-070920.jpg
Clashed%20ST-ljs-070920.jpg (199.22 KiB) Viewed 1205 times

90-O-EDS-LDS-COMPS-664725-ljs-070920.jpg
90-O-EDS-LDS-COMPS-664725-ljs-070920.jpg (52.16 KiB) Viewed 1205 times
1890-O_VAM-28A_Clashed_st-ljs-070920.jpg
1890-O_VAM-28A_Clashed_st-ljs-070920.jpg (92.98 KiB) Viewed 1205 times

Re: 1890-O MS62 Are theses feeder finger marks?

Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 11:25 am
by pete$298
ljs123,

Thank you again for the help and the picture comparison. In the future I will look more closely at the location of the clashes,etc. I have a lot to learn and everyone's help is greatly appreciated.

pete

Re: 1890-O MS62 Are theses feeder finger marks?

Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 3:01 pm
by ljs123
Pete,
Your welcome. I'm always attributing clashed coins in hand and on line. Very small details can determine a run of the mill VAM and one that is very much in demand. It also helps having coins in hand. I have a very low grade VAM-28A attributed by VSS in hand. It is low grade and cleaned, but still gives us important information.

Now to help get the VAM-1B, 28A, and 28B pages loaded with a little more accurate photos.
1. Please load any desirable VAM-28A photos to the VAM-28A page.
2. Please take the LFCPs off of the VAM-28B page and put them back where they belong on the VAM-1B page.
@messydesk

I could point out a few very fine differences that show the LFCP is a 1B and not a 28B.
Due to being limited to 5 photos per post, I will start with 3 photos showing the date that should be enough.
First is a photo from Ash Harrison (see his link on the 1B page).
Second is the LFCP that is a date match.
Third is a VAM-28A with the date farther to the right than the 1B.

Cah-1890-o-v1bLDS-obv-IN.jpg
Cah-1890-o-v1bLDS-obv-IN.jpg (127.47 KiB) Viewed 1189 times

1890_o_vam1bttmhiobv-crop.jpg
1890_o_vam1bttmhiobv-crop.jpg (177.97 KiB) Viewed 1189 times
ljs-90o-VAM-28A-obv1-small.jpg
ljs-90o-VAM-28A-obv1-small.jpg (190.49 KiB) Viewed 1189 times

Re: 1890-O MS62 Are theses feeder finger marks?

Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 3:06 pm
by ljs123
Now I will post some 28A photos that may be added to the 28A page if so desired.
Not all need to be added.

ljs-1890o_VAM-28A_label.jpg
ljs-1890o_VAM-28A_label.jpg (228.75 KiB) Viewed 1189 times


ljs-90o-VAM-28A-Lobv.jpg
ljs-90o-VAM-28A-Lobv.jpg (359.04 KiB) Viewed 1189 times

ljs-90o-VAM-28A-Lrev#2.jpg
ljs-90o-VAM-28A-Lrev#2.jpg (351.98 KiB) Viewed 1189 times



ljs-90o-VAM-28A-rev1small.jpg
ljs-90o-VAM-28A-rev1small.jpg (188.27 KiB) Viewed 1189 times

Re: 1890-O MS62 Are theses feeder finger marks?

Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 4:07 pm
by messydesk
ljs123 wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 3:01 pm
...
Now to help get the VAM-1B, 28A, and 28B pages loaded with a little more accurate photos.
1. Please load any desirable VAM-28A photos to the VAM-28A page.
2. Please take the LFCPs off of the VAM-28B page and put them back where they belong on the VAM-1B page.
@messydesk
Thanks for the clarification. Always good to get accurate information on the VAM pages. The three pages have been cleaned up and appropriate pictures have been added. I also mentioned the date position as a comment on both the VAM 1B and VAM 28B pages, as it seems the fastest way to tell them apart.

Re: 1890-O MS62 Are theses feeder finger marks?

Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 5:15 pm
by ljs123
messydesk wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 4:07 pm
ljs123 wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 3:01 pm
...
Now to help get the VAM-1B, 28A, and 28B pages loaded with a little more accurate photos.
1. Please load any desirable VAM-28A photos to the VAM-28A page.
2. Please take the LFCPs off of the VAM-28B page and put them back where they belong on the VAM-1B page.
@messydesk
Thanks for the clarification. Always good to get accurate information on the VAM pages. The three pages have been cleaned up and appropriate pictures have been added. I also mentioned the date position as a comment on both the VAM 1B and VAM 28B pages, as it seems the fastest way to tell them apart.

Thanks JB

Re: 1890-O MS62 Are theses feeder finger marks?

Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 5:22 pm
by ljs123
pete$298 wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 11:25 am
ljs123,

Thank you again for the help and the picture comparison. In the future I will look more closely at the location of the clashes,etc. I have a lot to learn and everyone's help is greatly appreciated.

pete

Pete,
I'm happy to help.
If you really want to practice what you said "In the future I will look more closely at the location of the clashes,etc", this post is your perfect opportunity. I showed you two small differences on the obverse (s clash and date) that made a difference in the attribution. You now know the correct attribution of the photos in this thread. Can you point out two small differences in the reverses? I'm thinking of two that stand out to me, maybe they will be the two you notice.
You don't have to answer if you don't want to. But I do think it would be a helpful exercise.
Best of luck,
Lee

Re: 1890-O MS62 Are theses feeder finger marks?

Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:01 pm
by pete$298
ljs123 wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 5:22 pm
pete$298 wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 11:25 am
ljs123,

Thank you again for the help and the picture comparison. In the future I will look more closely at the location of the clashes,etc. I have a lot to learn and everyone's help is greatly appreciated.

pete

Pete,
I'm happy to help.
If you really want to practice what you said "In the future I will look more closely at the location of the clashes,etc", this post is your perfect opportunity. I showed you two small differences on the obverse (s clash and date) that made a difference in the attribution. You now know the correct attribution of the photos in this thread. Can you point out two small differences in the reverses? I'm thinking of two that stand out to me, maybe they will be the two you notice.
You don't have to answer if you don't want to. But I do think it would be a helpful exercise.
Best of luck,
Lee
Lee, Thanks for taking interest. This is the kind of thing I was hoping for by joining this forum. I am very interested in your challenge and will start looking. May be a day or so before I can because of other commitments. Should I post here or in a PM? I am sort of new at the protocol here.

pete

Re: 1890-O MS62 Are theses feeder finger marks?

Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:11 pm
by ljs123
Pete,
Take your time. There are no VAM emergencies. Keep posting on this thread to keep it simple. The photos are already here.

Re: 1890-O MS62 Are theses feeder finger marks?

Posted: Sat Jul 11, 2020 1:47 am
by alefzero
A point worth making is that there were a few years between the 1B and 28A discoveries. For those looking for a 28A or 28B, it would be worthwhile to look at those attributed as 1B, even among your own coins. The MPD is an easy thing to miss when considering the clashing primarily. I know that I found quite a few older attributions among my own that had to change upon revisiting years later. Some were later listed die states, of course, but there are ones like this one on rare occasion.