1921-p help needed please

General discussion board about VAMs, but no buy/sell offers
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expat
Posts: 57
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2020 6:28 pm

1921-p help needed please

Post by expat » Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:11 pm

Hi all, can someone help me put this one to bed? Been staring at it for weeks. It has many clashes but I can't find anything
substantive to match it to, inexperience I know. Are there any pups or outstanding features that I should be seeing?
If you need particular areas photographed please let me know.
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20200428_234355.jpg
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20200604_192636.jpg
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Annotation 2020-06-30 000113.jpg
Annotation 2020-06-30 000113.jpg (103.9 KiB) Viewed 802 times
Annotation 2020-06-30 000253.jpg
Annotation 2020-06-30 000253.jpg (153.64 KiB) Viewed 802 times
InkedClash in olive cluster above O(ne)_LI.jpg
InkedClash in olive cluster above O(ne)_LI.jpg (1.8 MiB) Viewed 802 times

expat
Posts: 57
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2020 6:28 pm

Re: 1921-p help needed please

Post by expat » Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:12 pm

more pics
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InkedClash at neck (2)_LI.jpg
InkedClash at neck (2)_LI.jpg (1.67 MiB) Viewed 801 times
Clash behind IB.png
Clash behind IB.png (936.59 KiB) Viewed 801 times
Annotation 2020-06-29 235919.jpg
Annotation 2020-06-29 235919.jpg (109.4 KiB) Viewed 801 times

expat
Posts: 57
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2020 6:28 pm

Re: 1921-p help needed please

Post by expat » Wed Jul 08, 2020 10:01 pm

Who would be the best person to tag to get somewhere with this coin? Any 1921 specialists out there?

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ljs123
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Re: 1921-p help needed please

Post by ljs123 » Wed Jul 08, 2020 11:07 pm

There are several of us that work with 21s.
So far everything that I see you highlighting seems to be PMD (post mint damage) not made from the die.

expat
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Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2020 6:28 pm

Re: 1921-p help needed please

Post by expat » Fri Jul 10, 2020 7:31 am

Thanks, What specific areas of the coin should I be concentrating on? I have vammed most of my coins now but a few including this one just won't find a home.

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ljs123
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Re: 1921-p help needed please

Post by ljs123 » Fri Jul 10, 2020 9:36 am

A key area for attributing 21s is called the scribble zone. It is the lower tail feathers between the eagle’s legs. Many have identifiable fine lines (scribbles) that determine what VAM you have.
But those lines can be very difficult to photograph. The coin’s condition can make it even harder to see the scribbles.
Many 1921 VAMs can be identified by crack patterns. Your coin photos show very little in the way of cracks. Could you take a reverse close up of the letters “ES OF” of STATES OF? Also a close up of the eagle’s left wing (right wing as you view it) and the letters “AM”.
I can not tell for sure yet, but if I had to make a WAG, I think your coin may be VAM-100.
It is very difficult with the available information.

expat
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Re: 1921-p help needed please

Post by expat » Fri Jul 10, 2020 11:56 am

Thanks for your continued attention.
Here are the fotos
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Annotation 2020-07-10 134925.jpg
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Annotation 2020-07-10 132232.jpg
Annotation 2020-07-10 132232.jpg (134.91 KiB) Viewed 734 times
Annotation 2020-07-10 132122.jpg
Annotation 2020-07-10 132122.jpg (111.12 KiB) Viewed 734 times
Annotation 2020-07-10 131917.jpg
Annotation 2020-07-10 131917.jpg (93.23 KiB) Viewed 734 times
Annotation 2020-07-10 131606.jpg
Annotation 2020-07-10 131606.jpg (102.43 KiB) Viewed 734 times

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ljs123
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Re: 1921-p help needed please

Post by ljs123 » Fri Jul 10, 2020 5:27 pm

Not sure of VAM-100.
Maybe Dennis, Ken, or others could join in?
@DHalladay
@Kissov

Are there any other cracks that you can show photos of?

evensocome
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Joined: Fri Jun 12, 2020 3:55 am

Re: 1921-p help needed please

Post by evensocome » Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:39 pm

Look at the die crack page for the 16 berry reverse and find the crack shown in your last photo.

DHalladay
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Re: 1921-p help needed please

Post by DHalladay » Fri Jul 10, 2020 7:23 pm

I have held off joining this discussion due to the photos provided. There's an almost 'greasy' quality to them (or is it focus?) that makes them essentially impossible for me to make evaluations from.

The E-S-O crack is very similar to a handful of known 1921-P VAMs, but all of them have other cracks in other parts of the coin, both obverse and reverse. I would suggest you key on them in the D2 Die Crack Break Guide and see if anything matches your coin.

Scribbles, however, are by far the best way to nail down a 1921-P VAM attribution, but scribbles photos are extremely difficult to take successfully. Lighting is most of the problem. If you can try again, use more light and see if you can get a sharper, clearer photo of the scribbles area. The only part that usually matters is shown below by the yellow box:

VW post copy.jpg
VW post copy.jpg (203.99 KiB) Viewed 692 times

Move the lights around and up & down, move the coin around. I am constantly amazed at the huge differences in image quality and clarity that result from just tiny changes in lighting position and angle.
When in doubt... don't.

expat
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Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2020 6:28 pm

Re: 1921-p help needed please

Post by expat » Fri Jul 10, 2020 7:28 pm

OK thanks, working on it now

expat
Posts: 57
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2020 6:28 pm

Re: 1921-p help needed please

Post by expat » Fri Jul 10, 2020 9:33 pm

OK, Apart from flow lines on both sides from an obviously well worn die, there are very few things that stand out.
There is a die chip above the eagles beak, I can find no other cracks other than e-s-o,
There appears to be a lot of scribbles in various ares both obv and rev
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Annotation 2020-07-10 221619.jpg
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Annotation 2020-07-10 231805.jpg
Annotation 2020-07-10 231805.jpg (117.12 KiB) Viewed 683 times
Annotation 2020-07-10 231609.jpg
Annotation 2020-07-10 231609.jpg (147.11 KiB) Viewed 683 times

Kissov
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Re: 1921-p help needed please

Post by Kissov » Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:38 pm

I show about 49 D2 Reverse 21-P VAMs with an E-S-O crack. Your cracks are close to those of 3H, but 3H has other distinctive markers (e.g. gouge in olive leaves, other cracks, and characteristic scribbles).

The thing above the beak look like PMD to me.

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