1881-O Update for June

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HawkeEye
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1881-O Update for June

Post by HawkeEye » Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:17 pm

http://www.1881o.com/2018-06.html

Well I am back in the saddle so to speak and starting to catch up. I just posted the update above and think this is a good one. I finished up (or took it as far as my knowledge can go) the look at the VAM sequence for the 20, 1J, 1H, 40 can go.

But along the way I found what for me is a pretty good find in some true doubled denticles and confirmation of them on dozens of coins.

Enjoy
Deep in the woods of North Georgia

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mark
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Re: 1881-O Update for June

Post by mark » Wed Jun 27, 2018 10:52 pm

I have to admit this is frustrating. Why are there are different VAM's assigned to the same die paring. These share the same dies. They should be one VAM then EDS, MDS and LDS, or VAM-20A, 20B, 20C, etc., not completely different VAM numbers. ;)

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mark
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Re: 1881-O Update for June

Post by mark » Wed Jun 27, 2018 10:54 pm

And for the record.. I have what I think is a VAM-40.. but it doesn't have 1 of the breaks (below the chin) shown on your page but has all the rest. Definitely later state than VAM-1H.

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CascadeChris
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Re: 1881-O Update for June

Post by CascadeChris » Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:26 pm

Mark. It typically has to do with similar date doubling and or mm locations as the primary features. You're not alone. Most people who understand Leroys thinking behind it disagree with lumping completely different die pairs in with known VAMs as sub listings. Heck, it's been explained to me on more than one occasion by big name "OG" vam guys and I still have trouble processing the logic behind it. From what I gather it's a vestige of how Leroy originally set up the cataloguing system in the early days.
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HawkeEye
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1881-O Update for June

Post by HawkeEye » Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:29 am

I think it is a permanent learning curve. VAMing is open ended and thinking you understand everything is a mind numbing experience. Obviously I am focused very narrowly and I still struggle with many things.
Deep in the woods of North Georgia

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LateDateMorganGuy
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Re: 1881-O Update for June

Post by LateDateMorganGuy » Sun Jul 01, 2018 2:50 am

I think the culprit is sending a single coin to LVA with a feature "not listed", and that is all he has to look at when he lists something. He does not have a catalog of coins to refer back to. I have said many times, surround your supposed "new listing" coin with others that tell Leroy a story. Otherwise, we end up with multiple listings for the same die pair as is being complained about. What I suggest is hard, but it will help the hobby in the long run.

But newbie excitement about a feature not listed cannot be corralled.

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LateDateMorganGuy
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Re: 1881-O Update for June

Post by LateDateMorganGuy » Sun Jul 01, 2018 2:59 am

If you want a real life example, compare the photos of the 1903-O VAM-7 and VAM-16A on the old VW site. They are both the same die pair. The V16A is the LDS of V7. Now, how did this happen?

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LateDateMorganGuy
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Re: 1881-O Update for June

Post by LateDateMorganGuy » Sun Jul 01, 2018 3:03 am

And I guess I should clarify further, the VAM-16 and VAM-16A are completely different die pairs. Go figure.

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HawkeEye
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Re: 1881-O Update for June

Post by HawkeEye » Sun Jul 01, 2018 3:43 am

I was not aware when I started all this of the difficulty we put on LVA with the single coin submission and I have the greatest admiration for what he accomplishes based on his experience and knowledge. I limited my focus to just one date/mint so I could focus and learn, but I think that approach has also paid some dividends. It really helps when I need to compare coins because I have them all and don't have to go searching for the owners. But even with that advantage this can be difficult stuff.
Deep in the woods of North Georgia

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messydesk
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Re: 1881-O Update for June

Post by messydesk » Mon Jul 02, 2018 12:13 am

The confusion between 81-O VAM 1H and VAM 40 stems from the fact that strike and die wear both vary among coins. I will no longer call anything VAM 1H, because I'm convinced it is the same as VAM 40 after looking at about 1000 81-Os as a result of this project. The doubling on the ear is not always strong, but other traits of the VAM 40 obverse are. Die cracks are helpful when they are present, but not when they haven't formed yet. VAM 40 is one of the more common 81-O varieties.

Other 1880-83 coins suffer from inconsistent strike on the date. The 18 frequently has doubling on the surface of the digits, and sometimes this doesn't strike up. Other times it gets sheared off by ejection doubling. This makes attribution tricky and can lead to duplicate listings if additional, secondary pick-up points aren't checked when no repunching is evident on these digits.
Welcome to the VAMWorld 2.0 discussion boards. R.I.P. old VAMWorld.

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LateDateMorganGuy
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Re: 1881-O Update for June

Post by LateDateMorganGuy » Mon Jul 02, 2018 12:54 am

Those that do die studies, like you HE, do a lot to advance the hobby. Thanks for your efforts, and sorry to high jack your thread.

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Albannach
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Re: 1881-O Update for June

Post by Albannach » Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:19 pm

Stages of states.....stages of states.
Sounds like you still need a couple of the statges, and a possible event state...

How do you think I knew the 82-31A even existed, and starting searching, until I found it?

So, the cracks...you need another coin, the hunt continues.

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HawkeEye
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Re: 1881-O Update for June

Post by HawkeEye » Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:09 pm

Sorry I have been out of touch, but sometimes family and other conflicts slow me down. I will be back soon and hope to be working with JB to clean up the 81-O series to eliminate a number of conflicting VAMs.

I just got back the latest images from JB and will be adding them to the web site. The batch is 56 coins and that takes some time to add. There are a few coins to send to Leroy for analysis, but not many. This brings us to an even 1,000 coins and I would think the largest concentrated study of a series. I have another 15 or so coins to work with and will be making a decision on how to proceed once we work through the new JB returns.

I need to finish up the die crack work as I think it yields some clarity, but also is just interesting discussion and thought provoking. I am always looking for a different twist that might produce results and I think this one has promise. I think in particular die state and unusual pairings will be obvious.

Thanks for the patience while I get back on track with updates.
Deep in the woods of North Georgia

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