1921 peace dollar

General discussion board about VAMs, but no buy/sell offers
Post Reply
User avatar
mikev50
Posts: 43
Joined: Thu Jul 18, 2019 4:35 pm

1921 peace dollar

Post by mikev50 » Fri May 08, 2020 9:00 pm

any thoughts on this coin--
19212.jpg
19212.jpg (210.72 KiB) Viewed 380 times
19211.jpg
19211.jpg (225.35 KiB) Viewed 380 times

User avatar
messydesk
Site Admin
Posts: 2127
Joined: Mon May 28, 2018 1:57 am

Re: 1921 peace dollar

Post by messydesk » Fri May 08, 2020 9:12 pm

Average strike, decent luster. Doesn't scream "cleaned" from the picture. MS61-62 unless there is broken luster the pictures aren't showing.
Welcome to the VAMWorld 2.0 discussion boards. R.I.P. old VAMWorld.

User avatar
vampicker
Posts: 1046
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:48 pm
Location: Ohio

Re: 1921 peace dollar

Post by vampicker » Fri May 08, 2020 9:13 pm

Not 100% certain of the obverse, but it looks like VAM 1H, a business strike from proof dies
Last edited by vampicker on Sat May 09, 2020 11:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
often the crusher of hopes and dreams

davidkclose
Posts: 172
Joined: Sat Jun 09, 2018 8:39 pm

Re: 1921 peace dollar

Post by davidkclose » Sat May 09, 2020 12:29 am

I agree with Vvampicker, VAM 1H.

davidkclose
Posts: 172
Joined: Sat Jun 09, 2018 8:39 pm

Re: 1921 peace dollar

Post by davidkclose » Sat May 09, 2020 12:30 am

I agree with vampicker, VAM 1H.

RogerB
Posts: 333
Joined: Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:30 pm

Re: 1921 peace dollar

Post by RogerB » Sat May 09, 2020 2:27 am

The quantity of these "circulation strikes" from "proof dies" keeps growing. Yet, few seem to have the details characteristic of coins made during the first day of production. This is important: after the first day's experience of breaking and exploding dies from excess strike pressure, George Morgan ordered press pressure reduced to preserve dies. As Morgan commented "they got tired of replacing them." This means that nearly all of the coins with very good to excellent detail were likely made only on the first day and from the first 100,000 pieces.

All 1921-design proofs were made on a medal press before the first production day. It is reasonable to believe that if any of those "proof dies" were used for circulation coins, it would have happened on the first production day. Hence, one could expect coin detail well above the "average."

The quantity of 1921 H1 pieces keeps increasing, but there is no improvement in sample average detail. This brings up two questions:
1) Were a pair of proof dies somehow shunted to the final, lower pressure, production days?
2) Is current assessment of Sandblast and Satin proof 1921-design coins wrong or contaminated by non-proof coins?

I realize this is contrary to established thinking, and maybe I'm seeing too small a selection from the 1921-H1 population.

ABC_COINS
Posts: 36
Joined: Sat Mar 07, 2020 8:42 am

Re: 1921 peace dollar

Post by ABC_COINS » Sun May 10, 2020 6:36 am

1921 PEACE DOLLAR 1H

This coin is an absolute 1H with all the die markers present on obverse and reverse. I have had 3 of these in the last 2 years. The medal press version has a very deep strike and the later toggle press version is also listed on the bay ANACS AU for $450 I think. Look at both. This one has the deep strike with the curved surface to rim where the toggle press version is flat in appearance with a more squared surface to rim with flat rim that is not wired.
The polishing lines, if noticeable just looking at coin really do tell the condition as if worn those polishing lines are barely visible or broken in areas.

The others I had, one showed AU/MS60 had above average so called strike judging by the hair around ear but rest showed some handling marks after mint with average fields and strike , polishing lines very weak, luster missing in areas... The other MS61/62 was better but showed average strike and much less handling marks with above average fields...

Overall... This is a quite nice coin I would say 63+/64. I think I have looked at at least 20 of these closely in higher grades and believe that there is the original Satin Proof that you don't see polishing lines, the medal press issues with the polishing lines and the toggle press versions that are as flat and boring as can be.
Also, the toggle press versions that make people ask are all 1921'S high relief is because of the less pressure giving a flat appearance, impure silver not from U.S. used in planchets later on.

The Satin and the Matte didn't just look that way 100% from the dies.... Sandblasting techniques were used....
I firmly believe that there is difference in the 1921"s in these matters....
I also believe there are errors whithin the 1F and 1H like profound doubling etc....

I look at many and quickly move on if a toggle press was used..... They Don't even have a satin finish !! ... only same dies...
Now we are getting somewhere.... Early medal press strike = Satin/Matte surfaces Later toggle Press strike = Transitional toggle press high relief non satin surface strike.... Never seen a 1F Matte transitional high relief as of yet...

The early medal press issues have satin or matte look... One angle shining and another dull.... The toggle versions do not show this. It is just a flatter overall boring strange 1935-s look from inferior silver and strike....

Simple... go on the bay and review the 1H listings and enlarge them. There are about 5 including this one. This has average strike, much less bag marks, a nice luster throughout ....., You can see polishing lines just from images on this coin. the first image is there.... camera angle... above "WE" etc.

I was the kid who hung out at the coin shop back in 1975.... Learned allot from them and been collecting since. Will never know it all but just a fraction..... Always willing to learn if I don't know.... Not your average bay dude... I love and cherish the hobby and do not misrepresent.....

Thank You All...
Be Safe... This thing is a defining moment in history for all of us....

RogerB
Posts: 333
Joined: Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:30 pm

Re: 1921 peace dollar

Post by RogerB » Sun May 10, 2020 1:05 pm

Interesting comments.

RE "..., impure silver not from U.S. used in planchets later on."
All silver was refined by the Philadelphia Mint and New York Assay office to the same, normal standard. ("Impure" silver - assuming antimony, arsenic or other impurities, was brittle and cracked on rolling.)

Sandblast and satin proofs were made the same way on a medal press. The only difference is that some were sandblasted and some were not. Unfortunately, the Mint and some outside parties also sandblasted and/or antiqued circulation pieces both to illustrate the circulation version, and (private) to fleece buyers into believing they had a proof coin.

The comments about 1H being "average strike" are consistent with toggle press use and with my casual observations of these "struck from proof dies" pieces; but inconsistent with the cadre of well struck coins.

colwillys
Posts: 743
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:39 pm

Re: 1921 peace dollar

Post by colwillys » Sun May 10, 2020 2:13 pm

Sweet coin WTG .. My Opp it could be MS 63 .

Post Reply