1923-S - Little to no rim?

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Windycity
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1923-S - Little to no rim?

Post by Windycity » Sat Feb 29, 2020 5:50 pm

Odd looking coin - looking for some opinions from the experts. Note that the rim is almost non-existent when looking at the obverse or reverse - planchet seems to simply curve away from field to reeding. Doesn't appear to have post mint damage but I need an explanation from the experts.

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RogerRock
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Re: 1923-S - Little to no rim?

Post by RogerRock » Sun Mar 01, 2020 4:06 am

Pics of the reeded edge needed in order to evaluate.
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Windycity
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Re: 1923-S - Little to no rim?

Post by Windycity » Mon Mar 09, 2020 1:26 pm

Sorry for late response... been out of town. Here are images of reeded rim.

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messydesk
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Re: 1923-S - Little to no rim?

Post by messydesk » Mon Mar 09, 2020 3:15 pm

Most likely the rims weren't upset very well before striking. You see this a lot on 21-S Morgans.
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CascadeChris
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Re: 1923-S - Little to no rim?

Post by CascadeChris » Mon Mar 09, 2020 6:52 pm

messydesk wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 3:15 pm
Most likely the rims weren't upset very well before striking. You see this a lot on 21-S Morgans.
Is that what creates the funky 21s "gutter" rims JB? That makes a ton of sense. Why that didnt just auto-click for me before is beyond me :oops:
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messydesk
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Re: 1923-S - Little to no rim?

Post by messydesk » Mon Mar 09, 2020 6:57 pm

CascadeChris wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 6:52 pm
messydesk wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 3:15 pm
Most likely the rims weren't upset very well before striking. You see this a lot on 21-S Morgans.
Is that what creates the funky 21s "gutter" rims JB? That makes a ton of sense. Why that didnt just auto-click for me before is beyond me :oops:
I think so. Now here's an exercise for you. If rims can be insufficiently upset, they can also be overly upset. What do you think the rim of a finished coin would look like using a planchet with a very strong upset rim?
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CascadeChris
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Re: 1923-S - Little to no rim?

Post by CascadeChris » Mon Mar 09, 2020 7:17 pm

messydesk wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 6:57 pm
CascadeChris wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 6:52 pm
messydesk wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 3:15 pm
Most likely the rims weren't upset very well before striking. You see this a lot on 21-S Morgans.
Is that what creates the funky 21s "gutter" rims JB? That makes a ton of sense. Why that didnt just auto-click for me before is beyond me :oops:
I think so. Now here's an exercise for you. If rims can be insufficiently upset, they can also be overly upset. What do you think the rim of a finished coin would look like using a planchet with a very strong upset rim?
Crisp & hammered w/ possible finning 🤔
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messydesk
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Re: 1923-S - Little to no rim?

Post by messydesk » Mon Mar 09, 2020 8:09 pm

CascadeChris wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 7:17 pm
messydesk wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 6:57 pm
CascadeChris wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 6:52 pm


Is that what creates the funky 21s "gutter" rims JB? That makes a ton of sense. Why that didnt just auto-click for me before is beyond me :oops:
I think so. Now here's an exercise for you. If rims can be insufficiently upset, they can also be overly upset. What do you think the rim of a finished coin would look like using a planchet with a very strong upset rim?
Crisp & hammered w/ possible finning 🤔
But the dies are made with the correct height and shape of the rim, so what should happen to any extra height, or "fin", at the rim of such a planchet when it's struck properly?
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CascadeChris
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Re: 1923-S - Little to no rim?

Post by CascadeChris » Mon Mar 09, 2020 8:46 pm

messydesk wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 8:09 pm
CascadeChris wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 7:17 pm
messydesk wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 6:57 pm

I think so. Now here's an exercise for you. If rims can be insufficiently upset, they can also be overly upset. What do you think the rim of a finished coin would look like using a planchet with a very strong upset rim?
Crisp & hammered w/ possible finning 🤔
But the dies are made with the correct height and shape of the rim, so what should happen to any extra height, or "fin", at the rim of such a planchet when it's struck properly?
Horizontal finning?
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messydesk
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Re: 1923-S - Little to no rim?

Post by messydesk » Mon Mar 09, 2020 9:37 pm

CascadeChris wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 8:46 pm
messydesk wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 8:09 pm
CascadeChris wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 7:17 pm


Crisp & hammered w/ possible finning 🤔
But the dies are made with the correct height and shape of the rim, so what should happen to any extra height, or "fin", at the rim of such a planchet when it's struck properly?
Horizontal finning?
How about a groove in the rim?
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CascadeChris
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Re: 1923-S - Little to no rim?

Post by CascadeChris » Mon Mar 09, 2020 10:15 pm

messydesk wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 9:37 pm
CascadeChris wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 8:46 pm
messydesk wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 8:09 pm

But the dies are made with the correct height and shape of the rim, so what should happen to any extra height, or "fin", at the rim of such a planchet when it's struck properly?
Horizontal finning?
How about a groove in the rim?
I see where you're going there..
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RogerB
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Re: 1923-S - Little to no rim?

Post by RogerB » Tue Mar 10, 2020 2:31 am

If all the detail of a normal Peace dollar die were brought up during striking, it would look like the very best satin proof -- but maybe with luster from prior die use -- ? (None are known, however.) It would also have nearly square rims that were flat on the upper surface.

Note that a "fin" results from a mismatch between dies, collar and planchet upset - striking pressure is not directly involved as a cause.

RogerRock
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Re: 1923-S - Little to no rim?

Post by RogerRock » Tue Mar 10, 2020 7:18 am

The rim is complete on the inside next to the lettering. The lack of horizontal metal displacement
(stretched tops of lettering) confirms a strong raised rim! The rim gutter is wide and convoluted
with normal adjacent reeding. This coin exhibits a struck thru grease and debris contained in the rim gutter
evidenced by protruding reeded rim edges at the extreme edge of the shoulder.
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