Die Studies

General discussion board about VAMs, but no buy/sell offers
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TheYokel
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Re: Die Studies

Post by TheYokel » Tue Feb 18, 2020 2:43 am

LateDateMorganGuy wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 1:49 am
I have a continuum of a rant about doing die studies.

Here is a conundrum for you to think about. The series has a listed mintage of 657K coins. But there are 16 base VAMs listed. This would make an average of 41K average coins per die minted if every listed VAM had a different obverse and reverse die.

Think before you leap.
impairedsquirrel wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 2:34 am
Ant, no, the issue here is you are trying to force VAMming into a die study...
The OP here is the study of dies.
No. He is directly trying to equate VAMs to pairs.

Again. There is no telling that LVA didn't see 8 different unique pairs and call them all VAM-1. He could make eight pairs all VAM-1, or separate the same pair into three different VAMs because he didn't look at the full coin to notice the lineage and progression of the full coin. VAMs don't have to have a unique obverse and reverse die for LVA to make a listing.

LVA should never be used as a resource for mint numbers, IMO. He's playing a game of unique identifiers, nothing more.

It's his game, his rules, his decisions. We're just cleaning up his (and the submitters) mess.

If he wanted to catalogue each individual die as a pair, he should have done it from the beginning.
"There is no E"...

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impairedsquirrel
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Re: Die Studies

Post by impairedsquirrel » Tue Feb 18, 2020 2:54 am

Wait up Alan, I'll buy the first round!
I go totally NUTS for WOW! VAMs!! Or is that from WOW! VAMs?

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CascadeChris
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Re: Die Studies

Post by CascadeChris » Tue Feb 18, 2020 3:21 am

LateDateMorganGuy wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 12:58 am
Folks reject One & Done markers. I have never understood why :roll: Every time I suggest it I get a myriad of reasons why it won't work. But it does work actually.
The only downside I see to it is that it can possibly lead to laziness. Getting in the habit of not looking past them, looking further. And also the occasional times a 1&D marker could have an evil mimic on an as-yet unknown die but that falls into the laziness category.

If you want to push it again, I'm all for it.. Unless the bigger guys want it shut down for some reason. If it's just collective white noise though, tune it out is my view. I dig it..
Alonzi VW 2.0!

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PacificWR
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Re: Die Studies

Post by PacificWR » Tue Feb 18, 2020 5:02 am

I'll just add a few comments here. One of the most valuable pieces of information when doing a die study is to obtain a Die Life and Usage table...if possible. From the Die Life and Usage tables of the 1900-S and 1900-O one will be able to see how many die pairs were used, How rare each die pair is. In addition, one will be able to see if there is any potential problem with any of the die pairs. For the 1900-S there were seven more reverse dies used than Obverse dies. That right there tells you something. Remember, not everything was done the same way at each of the mints. An example of this is comparing the 1900-S and 1900-O Die Life and Usage Tables. With the New Orleans Mint there was a direct one to one relationship with the Obverse Die and Reverse Die. However, with the San Francisco Mint it was a whole different story (multiple die pairs). For the New Orleans Mint there are two different die pairs with each having a mintage of 2,000 or little bit more. These are the rare ones. Finally, another good piece of information is to have a complete list of the lot/batch numbers for each die pair.

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alefzero
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Re: Die Studies

Post by alefzero » Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:26 pm

LVA and AGM had no idea their Encyclopaedia would garner such detailed interest when they began listing varieties. Had the goal been to catalogue every distinct die pair and significant die state, they likely would not have bothered starting it. There was no audience for that for Morgan and Peace dollars. The production scale rendered that to be insane. Well, now there is a full asylum. I imagine if we dove into the Philadelphia issues in earnest, identifying distinct reverses would make some of us prefer to attribute 1921 scribbles.

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LateDateMorganGuy
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Re: Die Studies

Post by LateDateMorganGuy » Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:12 am

What is inherent in this "hobby" is that everyone can forge their own path, or follow their own interests, which may change over time.

While I have no interest in 1921 scribbles, those that do seem passionate about them. I would never take on a die study of the 1900-Os because of the high mintage. But Geoffrey did, God bless him. Wayne has taken on the 1900-S's which is a cool series to study of you like massive cracks and breaks. Ray took on the 1883-Os with Nate's help after a while. This type of thing goes on and on. Grab a series and study it. You might actually like it and learn a lot that you might not expect.

Rob, I will get the 2nd round.

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alefzero
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Re: Die Studies

Post by alefzero » Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:31 am

1900-S? I have looked for that 3A for decades. I do not believe that (S/hor S) is the product of a reverse die, but the coin is out there in the wild somewhere. Remember when the Impaled Eagle turned up on eBay? But I digress.

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LateDateMorganGuy
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Re: Die Studies

Post by LateDateMorganGuy » Wed Feb 19, 2020 4:48 am

John, I didn't find one in my die study. Maybe Wayne has found one or at least some thoughts on the subject.

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LateDateMorganGuy
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Re: Die Studies

Post by LateDateMorganGuy » Wed Feb 19, 2020 4:54 am

Roger, I went thru the link you posted for mint correspondence from 12/88 to 2/89 while on a 4 hour plane flight today. I did not find a mint usage table for the 1888-S dies. But an interesting read for the parts I actually stopped and read. Thanks for the link and history lesson.

RogerB
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Re: Die Studies

Post by RogerB » Fri Feb 21, 2020 3:39 am

LDMG - Lots of interesting stuff there -- and much more to come.

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