Die Studies

General discussion board about VAMs, but no buy/sell offers
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TheYokel
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Re: Die Studies

Post by TheYokel » Mon Feb 17, 2020 8:41 pm

LateDateMorganGuy wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 8:34 pm
I think JR hit the nail on the head. I only used average number of coins per die as an example. I think the 1900-S die useage table showed a few dies close to 500K per die?

But my point is that "new" VAMs get listed when many, many times they are just different die stages or states of previously listed marriages. These become the red-haired step-children listings.

The only way to avoid this is to do die studies, not "VAM discoveries". But I know I am pissing in the wind on this.
Not at all. I completely agree. That's why I avoid commenting on others coins. Last few times they got... Rather upset... When i pointed out they were duplicates.

We just need more photos of more coins. Blind submissions with no follow up for other eyes to check the pictures doesn't help.

I'm sure there's lots of die marriages and progressions we could kill off with full coin photos
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Bigbub
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Re: Die Studies

Post by Bigbub » Mon Feb 17, 2020 8:50 pm

I love it when Alan gets curmudgeonly. You invented the term "die poop" if I recall correctly?

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impairedsquirrel
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Re: Die Studies

Post by impairedsquirrel » Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:47 pm

Welcome back Ant! Hey, have you read "From Mine To Mint"? It was written by some Roger something or other and is VERY detailed in the workings of the mint... a guy like that would be great to have around here for his highly informed opinions on matters such as this!
When die studies are done I'd almost bet that the first thing the investigator might do is convince themselves that VAMs (and more importantly VAM listings) mean nothing to them?
I go totally NUTS for WOW! VAMs!! Or is that from WOW! VAMs?

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LateDateMorganGuy
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Re: Die Studies

Post by LateDateMorganGuy » Mon Feb 17, 2020 11:02 pm

For this VAMmer, Rob is correct. I do not look at what is on VW, and I really don't pay attention to the VAM listings either. I just go thru coins and document different dies, different die marriages, different die stages, different die states. Only once I have done that, do I go and see if anything matches up to VAM listings. But keep in mind I do not use the info here on VW for this. I go by what is in the Encyclopedia, and Supplements. I have said this before, and it is not popular, but the info on this site can be iffy. The downside of an open Wiki.

At the end of my work on a series, I list a Die Pair No., but in passing list possible VAM matches. But the point is not to find the VAMs, just the different obverse and reverse dies.

One thing I do is look for PUPs (die poop usually as BigBub says), that survives all die stages/states to ID the Die No's. I think I "coined" the phrase "die poop", but can't be sure of that since I have been at this for 18 years. I think I did "coin" the phrase "die incest".

Die studies folks, die studies.

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TheYokel
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Re: Die Studies

Post by TheYokel » Mon Feb 17, 2020 11:14 pm

impairedsquirrel wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:47 pm
Welcome back Ant! Hey, have you read "From Mine To Mint"? It was written by some Roger something or other and is VERY detailed in the workings of the mint... a guy like that would be great to have around here for his highly informed opinions on matters such as this!
When die studies are done I'd almost bet that the first thing the investigator might do is convince themselves that VAMs (and more importantly VAM listings) mean nothing to them?
Thank you for the well wishes.

I haven't, but would be awesome to throw ideas against him. (I'm picking up what you're putting down, I'm being facetious... :) ) Not trying to step on toes, just exchanging ideas.

"When you start a study.... VAMs mean nothing" - That's normally where i wind up. Especially when dealing with those tiny pictures of a single detail that some listings have and not seeing the whole coin.

Or like new listings like the VAM-13 i mentioned that was discovered in 2019 with no pictures on the listing at all. Hoping the new LVA workings clear up some of last year.

VAMing both simultaneously is and is not a die study. It's one (now) mans game of nomenclature. As was said... One mans upright and center is another mans left and tilted.

Die studies are completely separate from VAM studies....

...and they're sometimes linked at the same time...
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CascadeChris
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Re: Die Studies

Post by CascadeChris » Tue Feb 18, 2020 12:43 am

LateDateMorganGuy wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 11:02 pm
One thing I do is look for PUPs (die poop usually as BigBub says), that survives all die stages/states to ID the Die No's. I think I "coined" the phrase "die poop", but can't be sure of that since I have been at this for 18 years. I think I did "coin" the phrase "die incest".

Die studies folks, die studies.
With such a marker(s) one can reasonably come up with a system where a die is easily and quickly identifiable with relative certainty. We can call it something like One And Done or Two And Through, something like that. Whatcha think? 🤔🤪😎
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LateDateMorganGuy
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Re: Die Studies

Post by LateDateMorganGuy » Tue Feb 18, 2020 12:58 am

Folks reject One & Done markers. I have never understood why :roll: Every time I suggest it I get a myriad of reasons why it won't work. But it does work actually.

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Re: Die Studies

Post by TheYokel » Tue Feb 18, 2020 1:05 am

LateDateMorganGuy wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 12:58 am
Folks reject One & Done markers. I have never understood why :roll: Every time I suggest it I get a myriad of reasons why it won't work. But it does work actually.
My feeling: One and Done works great for ID'ing in some cases. Not for studying.

Lots of single photo listings show only a single pup on the obverse, with no photo of the reverse. With only a description in words, it's impossible to know whether there are marriages with a different reverse that have been missed/overlooked, or vise-versa... Without corresponding photos.

One mans upright is another mans left.

Full coin photos should be a necessity for a listing IMO...
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HawkeEye
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Re: Die Studies

Post by HawkeEye » Tue Feb 18, 2020 1:15 am

I think we all need to recognize the era and record keeping. Roger helped us with some data on the 1881-O and we could reconcile die usage from some reports. But on others the data conflicted or added up to numbers that just could not be matched.

It was an era of manual record keeping and Mint employees were human and made recording errors. In many cases I believe you can get directionally correct, but rarely exact. What made sense to them at the time may not be decipherable today.
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LateDateMorganGuy
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Re: Die Studies

Post by LateDateMorganGuy » Tue Feb 18, 2020 2:02 am

Yokel, you made my point. A myriad of reasons why it won't work.................

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TheYokel
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Re: Die Studies

Post by TheYokel » Tue Feb 18, 2020 2:03 am

LateDateMorganGuy wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 2:02 am
Yokel, you made my point. A myriad of reasons why it won't work.................
If it weren't for die incest and re-marriages I'd agree with you.
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LateDateMorganGuy
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Re: Die Studies

Post by LateDateMorganGuy » Tue Feb 18, 2020 2:07 am

Again, the point is seemingly being missed. If a One & Done die marker or two are identified for each distinct obverse and reverse die, then you might understand how the One & Done actually works. It works irrespective of die marriage.

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Re: Die Studies

Post by TheYokel » Tue Feb 18, 2020 2:13 am

LateDateMorganGuy wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 2:07 am
Again, the point is seemingly being missed. If a One & Done die marker or two are identified for each distinct obverse and reverse die, then you might understand how the One & Done actually works. It works irrespective of die marriage.
I agree with you LDMG... That works for individual die identification, yes sir. But not for VAM identification. It would at least need to be two and done. One marker from each side.

It simply would. Not. Work. For a pair to have a marker from one side. Think of things like the 83-O 22/36...

You need one from both sides.
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LateDateMorganGuy
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Re: Die Studies

Post by LateDateMorganGuy » Tue Feb 18, 2020 2:16 am

I'm out. There is a saying in St. Louis, "YCFS".

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impairedsquirrel
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Re: Die Studies

Post by impairedsquirrel » Tue Feb 18, 2020 2:28 am

Hehe, hey Alan, I think you and I debated this a few times... until my brain caught up with the idea that you are studying dies, not VAMs (hint, hint).
Would it be safe to say "One and done for the die and two and through for the VAM"?
I go totally NUTS for WOW! VAMs!! Or is that from WOW! VAMs?

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Re: Die Studies

Post by TheYokel » Tue Feb 18, 2020 2:30 am

LateDateMorganGuy wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 2:16 am
I'm out. There is a saying in St. Louis, "YCFS".
Calling someone stupid instead of trying to understand where they are coming from isn't fruitful to anyone.

Let me try to simplify my stance on all of this. VAMing isnt die identification. It's a game. If LVA cared about individually identifying every pair to make a VAM... We wouldn't have "Multiple Dies Exist" for a pair.

For example: 1878-S VAM-86. Has 3 different reverses attributed to it. Same VAM... 3 pairs. VAMs don't equate to pairs. There are many "unique" die pairs that encompass single VAMs.

VAMing isn't a die study.

That's where I'm coming from.

You are simply forcing die studies into VAMing. It doesn't fit
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Re: Die Studies

Post by impairedsquirrel » Tue Feb 18, 2020 2:32 am

LateDateMorganGuy wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 2:16 am
I'm out. There is a saying in St. Louis, "YCFS".
Dang, never knew I was in proximity of St. Louis... I've heard that saying!
I go totally NUTS for WOW! VAMs!! Or is that from WOW! VAMs?

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impairedsquirrel
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Re: Die Studies

Post by impairedsquirrel » Tue Feb 18, 2020 2:34 am

Ant, no, the issue here is you are trying to force VAMming into a die study...
The OP here is the study of dies.
And just to show I'm fair, Alan, it's myriad reasons not a myriad of reasons... sheesh, engineers, I tell you what. If I had a nickel for every time us field guys have had to correct them... :lol:
Last edited by impairedsquirrel on Tue Feb 18, 2020 2:39 am, edited 2 times in total.
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TheYokel
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Re: Die Studies

Post by TheYokel » Tue Feb 18, 2020 2:34 am

impairedsquirrel wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 2:28 am
Hehe, hey Alan, I think you and I debated this a few times... until my brain caught up with the idea that you are studying dies, not VAMs (hint, hint).
Would it be safe to say "One and done for the die and two and through for the VAM"?
Yes. 100% exactly.
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impairedsquirrel
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Re: Die Studies

Post by impairedsquirrel » Tue Feb 18, 2020 2:38 am

Mostly Ant, but keep in mind "Only a Sith sees in absolutes".
I go totally NUTS for WOW! VAMs!! Or is that from WOW! VAMs?

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