1883-CC mini die study (VAM 2 has VAM 3 LDS reverse)

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weth
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1883-CC mini die study (VAM 2 has VAM 3 LDS reverse)

Post by weth » Fri Feb 14, 2020 2:30 pm

Hi gang,

I decided to venture out toward other mintage regions and collect the 78CC and 83CC sets. They both seemed like reasonable, bounded sets and that I wouldn’t really find anything new. For the 1883-CC varieties, it was pretty easy to find examples of VAMs 3, 4, 5, and 8, along with their various late die stages. But VAM 2 turned out to be a challenge; seems like it’s fairly rare. Finally found a nice example, and since it isn’t mentioned on the VAM 2 page, thought I would point out that the reverse is a very late die stage of VAM 3. It’s after the VAM 3A clash, polished back to a mirrored finish, but elements of the clash still show. At first I thought the obverse might also be of the VAM 3 class (so maybe VAM 2 actually is VAM 3B?), but no, it appears to be a distinctly different obverse die.

So as far as I can tell, there are four obverse (2/3/4/5) and four reverse (3/4/5/8) dies used in 1883-CC mintage, combined to make five different VAMs:

VAM 2 = 2obv / 3rev
VAM 3 = 3obv / 3rev
VAM 4 = 4obv / 4rev
VAM 5 = 5obv / 5rev
VAM 8 = 4obv / 8rev

I don’t think that VAM 1 exists, and I don’t see any evidence that VAM 4A exists.

Please do let me know if you know of any 1883-CC examples that don’t follow the above description!

Thanks,
Tom / weth

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vampicker
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Re: 1883-CC mini die study (VAM 2 has VAM 3 LDS reverse)

Post by vampicker » Fri Feb 14, 2020 3:43 pm

Matches what I've found exactly. The deeper dive is adding all the minor stages.
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weth
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Re: 1883-CC mini die study (VAM 2 has VAM 3 LDS reverse)

Post by weth » Fri Feb 14, 2020 3:55 pm

vampicker wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 3:43 pm
Matches what I've found exactly. The deeper dive is adding all the minor stages.
I think VAM 5 deserves this, in the same way the 78P 116 was expanded from four LVA listings to the seven stages.
I'll need some more time, patience, and representative examples before I can make any such delineation, though.

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vampicker
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Re: 1883-CC mini die study (VAM 2 has VAM 3 LDS reverse)

Post by vampicker » Fri Feb 14, 2020 4:11 pm

Yeah, we're up to five listed stages for this marriage and there are other minor ones I'm aware of, Overall this marriage accounts for around half the total mintage.
As you noted, VAM 2 is by far the most difficult to find. None of these, even with all the stages, is actually rare.

The 78-CC set is a greater challenge, but hardly impossible unless you venture into chasing GSA examples
often the crusher of hopes and dreams

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RMG1883CC
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Re: 1883-CC mini die study (VAM 2 has VAM 3 LDS reverse)

Post by RMG1883CC » Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:18 pm

Great effort- I have some of the 83CC Vams with good photos on SD if it will help.

Thanks again for the effort — You too JR

weth
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Re: 1883-CC mini die study (VAM 2 has VAM 3 LDS reverse)

Post by weth » Sun Mar 22, 2020 10:22 pm

I'm working on a listing of stages for the VAM 5, and should have a draft ready shortly. I'm certainly going to want input from the group, as there seem to be a couple possible stages that I can't find specific examples for...

Speaking of 83CC stages, perhaps this is a question mostly for @vampicker or @messydesk but perhaps someone else knows:

There is a late die stage of the 83CC VAM 3. It looks like it is after the 3A clash - the obverse has been polished, but the reverse hasn't. Close to the neck there is some protrusion - looks like a small cud along the length, or maybe a counterclash of some kind. I guess my question is - have you come across this before? Has anyone presented this to LVA? Does it look listable (perhaps 3B) or is this just again VAM 3 (LDS)? I could take photos, but Heritage already did a nice job:

https://coins.ha.com/itm/morgan-dollars ... 07-23572.s

I'd appreciate your thoughts!

Tom / weth

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vampicker
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Re: 1883-CC mini die study (VAM 2 has VAM 3 LDS reverse)

Post by vampicker » Mon Mar 23, 2020 3:11 pm

This is a fairly common stage in the VAM 3 progression and yes, it is after the VAM 3A clash. Most examples designated as VAM 3 will be this. EDS with no clash is a little tougher (but by no means rare or even scarce) and this LDS can be found with ease.
That 'Adam's apple' mark is a dead giveaway for the stage if the clashing is polished. It's the sort of thing that Leroy would have thrown shade for sending to him in the past, but who knows how it would be received now, particularly as part of a comprehensive work on the date.
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RogerB
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Re: 1883-CC mini die study (VAM 2 has VAM 3 LDS reverse)

Post by RogerB » Mon Mar 23, 2020 11:22 pm

That's a year for which I d not have die data - but I'll keep looking.

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