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Re: Polished 1888-S Proof, Vam ???

Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2020 6:33 pm
by LateDateMorganGuy
John, interesting coin to say the least.

Anyone want to take on a die study of the 88-S? If not, I can do it. Shouldn't be too much trouble with a mintage of only 657,000. While I prefer to dwell in later date Morgans, I could take it on in my spare time.

Re: Polished 1888-S Proof, Vam ???

Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2020 6:55 pm
by RogerB
Nice coin. Why is it called "proof" in the thread title?

Re: Polished 1888-S Proof, Vam ???

Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2020 7:30 pm
by bigjayvee
Yes Alan, like you, not my date either !!!! How many do I have? Just this one. Don't know where I even acquired it !!! Found it while looking thru some other boxes. If you do a study,i know it will be thorough ! BTW Have you made the move to FLA yet?
And Roger, misinformation on my part, it is Proof-Like.
Thank both of you for your comments !!!!

Re: Polished 1888-S Proof, Vam ???

Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2020 9:15 pm
by LateDateMorganGuy
John, I need to finish my current die study, but almost done. Maybe someone else will do a study. The field is open.

Not in FL yet. Move the wife and household down end of April. I come down Fall of 2021.

Re: Polished 1888-S Proof, Vam ???

Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2020 9:19 pm
by bigjayvee
:D :D :D

Re: Polished 1888-S Proof, Vam ???

Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2020 2:00 pm
by LateDateMorganGuy
John, does your coin have a die gouge on the obverse between the 1st & 2nd right stars just outside the denticles?

Re: Polished 1888-S Proof, Vam ???

Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2020 3:39 pm
by CascadeChris
That gouge above the arrow fletchign looks VERY familiar 🤔

Re: Polished 1888-S Proof, Vam ???

Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2020 3:56 pm
by LateDateMorganGuy
It is on one reverse die that was used in two different die marriages.

Re: Polished 1888-S Proof, Vam ???

Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2020 1:00 pm
by bigjayvee
Alan, I can see your on the case !!!! Here are 2 photos of the space between 1st and 2nd Rt. stars.Looks like one large gouge with many scratches to the right of this gouge coming from the denticles. I've been searching for the arrow gouge on other 88-S's and have seen some with this gouge. You are right on the money,with one reverse die with two different marriages. It looked to me that there is a near date as well normal date with this gouged reverse. What say you ? Btw, Good job on the gouge, I never noticed it before you found it.
jv 1888 S gouges Rt. stars 1 03-09-2020.jpg
jv 1888 S gouges Rt. stars 1 03-09-2020.jpg (93.24 KiB) Viewed 529 times
jv 1888 S gouges Rt. stars 2 03-09-2020.jpg
jv 1888 S gouges Rt. stars 2 03-09-2020.jpg (125.04 KiB) Viewed 529 times

Re: Polished 1888-S Proof, Vam ???

Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2020 1:49 pm
by LateDateMorganGuy
John, a couple of things.

The reverse die was also used on VAM-3 (near date) and VAM-5. The marriage you have is the middle (or second) marriage as I recall. The obverse was used in a previous, earlier marriage with an unrelated reverse die.

I think the "doubling" you see on the mint mark is MDD. It is not on all stages of the reverse die. For that matter, I have not seen it on any stage.

I would focus on the date and see if you think there is any doubling to try and find a match.

By the way, a polish job on LDS coins make this marriage a VAM-4 later in the die life. So technically you could call it a EDS of VAM-4. The problem with this is that other reverse dies and marriages could also fall into VAM-4 with the LDS polishing jobs.

Confused yet? At the end of the day you could put a VAM-1 sticker on it.

Re: Polished 1888-S Proof, Vam ???

Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2020 2:43 pm
by bigjayvee
Alan, you are the man !!!! Now you know why no one wanted to mess with the 88-S. It's like most "S" mints, a lot of variables.
Great job and thanks !!!!!

Re: Polished 1888-S Proof, Vam ???

Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2020 8:19 pm
by shortnock
Do you think someone wiped the die with a rag that had some acid on it?

Re: Polished 1888-S Proof, Vam ???

Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2020 11:52 pm
by LateDateMorganGuy
Not sure what caused the "issues" on BJV's coin. But an observation is that for some reason the Morgan's coming out of the SF mint have excessive die ejection/sliding issues. So a lot of the "doubling" issues listed for certain VAMs may not be in the die, but from the ejection/sliding issues of the press/presses. Some dies have listed "breaks". I am not sure I would call them breaks, but I do not make that call. The VAM-6 family needs some concentration, which I will do when I have time in the near future.

I have identified 11 and 8 different obverse and reverse dies respectively,(so far at least). For a mintage of only 657K coins, there was a lot of die incest which I have not tied together completely yet but will. This will come with more time. As far as I can tell, the VAM-2 reverse was used with 4 different obverse dies (including the VAM-14 unlike the listing by Leroy indicates) for example.

The mintage numbers by month for the calendar year of 1888 in the SF is as follows. Makes you wonder what die pair was used in August at 10K coins.

Re: Polished 1888-S Proof, Vam ???

Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2020 12:19 am
by LateDateMorganGuy
By the way, some folks may wonder how I can tell certain things in doing die studies. Many of you know this already based on your experience.

The following is an example. There are apparently two different obverse dies used in the VAM-6 family. Meaning, the VAM-6 reverse is used with 2 different obverse dies. How can I tell? Shown below are shots of die cracks from the two different obverse dies. I believe the first one is responsible for the VAM-6A/6B/6C listings. The second one may be responsible for the VAM-6D listing. Either the EDS of both marriages could be responsible for the first VAM-6 listing, prior to 2004ish when Leroy starting listing clashed letter transfer.

The first coin develops a radial crack at the 3rd right star prior to developing the cracks at the left stars. The second coin develops cracks at the left stars and never develops a radial crack at the 3rd right star. You cannot polish out a radial crack without it redeveloping. Thus two different obverse dies. By the way, while the date placement between the two obverse dies is similar, they are different. I hope the photos below can show what I am saying.

I have to sort out the actual die progression, which may, or may not match the official VAM listings.