confused: 1878 VAM 130C2 vs. 130C3

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DHalladay
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confused: 1878 VAM 130C2 vs. 130C3

Post by DHalladay » Wed Feb 05, 2020 2:43 pm

What's the difference between them? The official description for 130C2 seems to describe what I see in the LFCP for 130C3.

Does 130C2 not have a crack from Liberty's hair to the E?
When in doubt... don't.

weth
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Re: confused: 1878 VAM 130C2 vs. 130C3

Post by weth » Wed Feb 05, 2020 5:16 pm

Hey Dennis,

I think it goes:

130C1 - weak nostril. May have start of break above cap.
130C2 - break above cap has developed displaced field. May have cracks into U and E, but not displaced field.
130C3 - crack into U has developed displaced field.

DHalladay
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Re: confused: 1878 VAM 130C2 vs. 130C3

Post by DHalladay » Wed Feb 05, 2020 5:36 pm

weth wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 5:16 pm
Hey Dennis,

I think it goes:

130C1 - weak nostril. May have start of break above cap.
130C2 - break above cap has developed displaced field. May have cracks into U and E, but not displaced field.
130C3 - crack into U has developed displaced field.

Thanks Tom.
So it basically boils down to being a judgement call about when & if displacement has occurred.
When in doubt... don't.

vamnuke
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Re: confused: 1878 VAM 130C2 vs. 130C3

Post by vamnuke » Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:53 pm

C2 DOES NOT EXISt; the one certified by LVA and in the SSDC data base would now be a C3. It is an empty "hole" and one of several for the 78-P set. As for the die pairing, 130C die 1, it does exist in DMPL in EDS form; most all have some sort of die cracking, but don't try to find a C2; they're either C1 or C3.

weth
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Re: confused: 1878 VAM 130C2 vs. 130C3

Post by weth » Thu Feb 06, 2020 3:24 am

I think that's correct, in that there isn't actually a 130C2 stage. At least, I don't have one and have never seen one.
There are four examples listed in the SSDC registry, though.

The whole "letter suffix to signify a particular late stage attribute" aspect of LVA's nomenclature is ripe for splitting hairs over whether the qualifying criteria has been met with any given example. I'm a fan of the 1878P VAM 142, as it has a lot of faint polishing lines and little breaks; I've always found it to be a fun coin to look at. I saw the VAM 142A discovery coin for sale on eBay, so I bought it; it's an ANACS EF 40 example. The breaks at OF are fairly large, and the circulation wear getting it to the EF45 grade has flattened the breaks out, so they're quite prominent. But those two breaks grew over time as the dies wore; at what point are the breaks big enough to transition from VAM 142 to VAM 142A? It's sort of like the "Paradox of the Heap" proverb - how many grains of sand until it is a mountain? I've thought about sending an array of VAM 142 examples to LVA to try and determine that cut-off point, but that's probably going to annoy him more than it would provide clarity.

It would be great if we could eliminate the 130C2 listing, but I'm unsure what array of examples would convince LVA of that, short of presenting the PCGS MS64 discovery coin.

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LateDateMorganGuy
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Re: confused: 1878 VAM 130C2 vs. 130C3

Post by LateDateMorganGuy » Thu Feb 06, 2020 3:56 am

I find this thread interesting. I started to type this response earlier tonight, and backed out since most folks would just think the curmudgeon was back, which I am. But Tom reinforced my thoughts, so here I am.

Having done a LOT of die studies, this is one of my biggest conundrums of this hobby. When is a break a crack? When is a crack displaced? Why do folks feel the need to send coins to Leroy just because...............this, that and the other thing? This creates confusion in the listings. I would not want to be a TGA with this type of listing if coins crossed my desk.

This situation with multiple gray area die state listings occurs in many series, not just the 78-Ps. Folks that get this type of listing have chased off many great Vammers in the past. I have been around long enough to see the 78-P guys groan when when of these supposed sub-listings gets listed. It just makes completing a full set impossible. Then they say "why bother with this"?

But my little rant will not change things.
Last edited by LateDateMorganGuy on Thu Feb 06, 2020 5:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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messydesk
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Re: confused: 1878 VAM 130C2 vs. 130C3

Post by messydesk » Thu Feb 06, 2020 9:46 am

LateDateMorganGuy wrote:
Thu Feb 06, 2020 3:56 am
I would not want to be a TGA with this type listing if coins crossed my desk.
In some respects, these "gray area" VAMs come down to what I feel like calling it. By their nature, either designation on either side of the ambiguous threshold is arguably correct. This isn't unique to VAMs, either. Any varieties that catalog die stages have the same problem. The manner in which they're cataloged can make a difference in how they're received, however. They should not be given the same prominence as the die pair that they belong to.
Welcome to the VAMWorld 2.0 discussion boards. R.I.P. old VAMWorld.

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Longstrider
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Re: confused: 1878 VAM 130C2 vs. 130C3

Post by Longstrider » Thu Feb 06, 2020 5:00 pm

I love this thread. To see our experts discus the fine points. This is a true learning experience to me, a very unschooled vam'er. Thanks all.🐍

DHalladay
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Re: confused: 1878 VAM 130C2 vs. 130C3

Post by DHalladay » Thu Feb 06, 2020 5:11 pm

I am greatly pleased – unexpectedly so – that I asked for help on this subject, because it generated an abundance of opinion, insight and education from some of our best VAM minds. Saying "thank you" feels tremendously inadequate, but it is where I will start. Thank you!
When in doubt... don't.

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