Insane roller lines....

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CascadeChris
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Insane roller lines....

Post by CascadeChris » Thu Jan 30, 2020 8:12 am

Told ya guys I have a wicked one. Cant seem to quite capture them all at once. Too much light bleaching on one area or another at any given angle. Need some pro glamor shots that can specifically bring them all out at once. Enjoy 😎

Never did VAM her btw, but I'm sure with one look at that neck clash you 83o guys will recognize her on the spot. 44B maybe?

The reverse is replete with them. Probably on the scale of around 90% of the entire rev while the obverse mainly only has them through the bust from rim to rim without much in the right & left fields enjoying the awesome...

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CascadeChris
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Re: Insane roller lines....

Post by CascadeChris » Thu Jan 30, 2020 8:14 am

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morganman
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Re: Insane roller lines....

Post by morganman » Thu Jan 30, 2020 9:16 am

WOWSER COOL- THANKS OR POSTING HER
:|

collectinsince65
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Re: Insane roller lines....

Post by collectinsince65 » Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:09 pm

Cool picts Chris!

RogerRock
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Re: Insane roller lines....

Post by RogerRock » Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:25 pm

Outstanding linear roller lines! Thanks for posting her.
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Longstrider
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Re: Insane roller lines....

Post by Longstrider » Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:54 pm

WOW!! Amazing. I wonder if that happened at the mint or some bank?? Very cool coin. Thanks.🐍

RogerB
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Re: Insane roller lines....

Post by RogerB » Thu Jan 30, 2020 6:09 pm

The defects were caused by the drawbench die being damaged or badly worn. It is not related to the "rolls" or rolling out ingots into strip for blanking. normalization with the drawbench was the final step before blanks were cut.

OK -- I'm being picky. But better to use a name that describes the cause, when possible. (Another example: "matte proof" which is correctly called "sandblast proof" - that's what was done to the proof coin after striking.)

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CascadeChris
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Re: Insane roller lines....

Post by CascadeChris » Thu Jan 30, 2020 6:22 pm

RogerB wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 6:09 pm
The defects were caused by the drawbench die being damaged or badly worn. It is not related to the "rolls" or rolling out ingots into strip for blanking. normalization with the drawbench was the final step before blanks were cut.

OK -- I'm being picky. But better to use a name that describes the cause, when possible. (Another example: "matte proof" which is correctly called "sandblast proof" - that's what was done to the proof coin after striking.)

I've always heard it was the stip rollers, that were damaged / worn, that imparted it. 🤨

Edit: and I've also never heard of someone calling a MP a "sandblast proof" either. I've heard of the sandblasting phase but I've never heard of someone colloquially calling a MP a SBP 🤔
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ORGirl1!
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Re: Insane roller lines....

Post by ORGirl1! » Thu Jan 30, 2020 11:00 pm

Wow, Chris! Nice!!
What did you take the photos with? They capture the lines quite nicely!

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CascadeChris
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Re: Insane roller lines....

Post by CascadeChris » Thu Jan 30, 2020 11:41 pm

ORGirl1! wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 11:00 pm
Wow, Chris! Nice!!
What did you take the photos with? They capture the lines quite nicely!
Thansks. Just my Samsung Note10+ but it's more a matter of throwing the light in a way that allows all the lines to cast shadows to be able to capture them all in their full glory in one image and my setup is simply 2 gooseneck lamps which is why I had to post pics at various angles and they still weren't able to catch all of them nomatter the angle. If/when I get some pro glams of it I'll update the thread..
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alefzero
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Re: Insane roller lines....

Post by alefzero » Fri Jan 31, 2020 12:13 am

Drawbench striations.

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Re: Insane roller lines....

Post by RogerB » Fri Jan 31, 2020 1:38 am

RE:
I've always heard it was the stip rollers, that were damaged / worn, that imparted it. 🤨

Edit: and I've also never heard of someone calling a MP a "sandblast proof" either. I've heard of the sandblasting phase but I've never heard of someone colloquially calling a MP a SBP 🤔

Some background - Coinage ingots were case by the M&R Department then transferred to the Coining Department after their fineness was verified by assay. Once in Coining Dept. control the ingots were run between heavy steel rolls - sometimes as many as 15+ times - until they were the correct thickness for punching coin blanks. However, the rolls in use during the 19th century were not precise enough to ensure a completely uniform thickness. To remedy this, the nearly-correct strips were pulled (not rolled) between two hard steel linear dies with polished surfaces. This drawbench operation forced strip metal into a uniform thickness. It is at this point that the defects shown in the above photos were imparted into the strip through damage or other defects of the drawbench's polished dies.

The only term used by coin collectors for Saint-Gaudens gold proofs was "sandblast proof" until after WW-II. It is simple, clean and an entirely accurate description of the process. Wally Breen, in the early 1950s, not having done any real research on the subject, decided to call them "matte proof" after the surface appearance. With Breen's reputation, dealers quickly adopted his inaccurate nomenclature. More than 20 years ago Dave Bowers and I began encouraging a return to the older, accurate terminology, and simultaneously reserving the term "matte proof" for Lincoln and Buffalo coins made from sandblasted dies (not sandblasted coins). The return to logical, informative terminology is slowly being accomplished. I'll also add that this avoids the confusion of having the same term used for two different processes.

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CascadeChris
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Re: Insane roller lines....

Post by CascadeChris » Fri Jan 31, 2020 2:48 pm

Thansk roger.


@vampicker curious, if this came to you in solid choice 3 how would you grade it, what number would you put on it? And what about if it were a solid 5 or even 6 otherwise?
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Re: Insane roller lines....

Post by vampicker » Fri Jan 31, 2020 4:52 pm

That's impossible to answer in general. Have to see the individual coin in hand. How distracting are the marks? How much is the luster disrupted?
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Re: Insane roller lines....

Post by messydesk » Fri Jan 31, 2020 5:18 pm

CascadeChris wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 2:48 pm
@vampicker curious, if this came to you in solid choice 3 how would you grade it, what number would you put on it? And what about if it were a solid 5 or even 6 otherwise?
Despite them being cool, lines (grooves) like this score a negative in the eye-appeal department, and usually indicate a deficient strike. Ignoring the coolness factor, given the choice between buying two coins graded 65 that are otherwise identical, one with these lines and one without, I would choose the one without. If the lines are severe enough, one could conceive calling it a defective planchet.
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Longstrider
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Re: Insane roller lines....

Post by Longstrider » Fri Jan 31, 2020 5:22 pm

@RogerB Thanks for the clarity. So would that kinda be like the metal was the opposite of being extruded, pulled not pushed?🐍

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Re: Insane roller lines....

Post by RogerB » Sat Feb 01, 2020 1:33 am

Think of it as pulling stiff cookie dough through a fixed opening so that it was absolutely uniform....Not sure if that analogy works, though. The upper and lower dies in a drawbench were polished steel and absolutely inflexible. When pulled through, the metal was forced into uniform thickness -- maybe like spreading peanut butter with a flat knife --? Changes in the strip's surface were minute, but sufficient to avoid most heavy/light blanks.

Given the extent of drawbench lines on some dollars, one wonders of the coins were actually light weight. Have any members weighed their specimens?

BTW - Silver dollar blanks were the first coins routinely weighed and sorted by machine in the USA. The Royal Mint had used these "assorting machines" for years to weigh sovereigns. (See From Mine to Mint for illustrations and comments.) They also used automatic shaving machines to reduce the weight of heavy planchets. (I don't think they had an automated milk shake machine to fatten up light blanks....)
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PacificWR
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Re: Insane roller lines....

Post by PacificWR » Sat Feb 01, 2020 3:09 am

Nice post.

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